Blunkett resigns

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

Good to see free speech is the norm then,must get rid of the far seeing machine(thats english for a german tv),you never know who,s watching,keep on rocking in the free world,now that is a poem.

[Dick Smith]

We don't have to keep drivel, either.

[SaligoBay]

Alane:  If I had heard a single argument that truly demonstrated the need for ID cards then I would comply with the requirement to hold one. The arguments simply aren't there.

Have you tried asking any French people?   They all carry ID cards, and mostly find it absolutely normal.   In fact, they just can't believe that British people are making such a fuss about nothing.

OTOH hand, don't bother asking, it's a non-starter as a fun piece of conversation!   

 

[Iceni]

I have never understood the arguments for NOT carrying id - but then I am a white, middle aged male with no criminal record and not engaged in criminal activity.

Cards will be introduced in UK because His Holiness says so but if done to the usual Govt standard will arrive late, cost the earth and won't work anyway.

John 

[Dick Smith]

Identity theft and identity fraud - 2 good reasons.

Ability to prove unequivocally who I am - another.

Most of the arguments against are false - no-one is suggesting that the Madrid Bombings would have been prevented by ID cards, but raising funds with false IDs to pay for it may have, for example. I agree with Di that once again we have a very ambitious IT specification and the general record is poor. Especially if any of the 'usual suspects' gets the contract. I believe Capita are planning to bid...

[Piprob]

Whether I am dealing with matters of health, tax, employment, money, etc., I can't help noticing I need to identify myself within 'the system'. Isn't the concept of an identity card entirely consistent with the way things work in reality?

But while I might be willing to carry an ID card here and now, I must also accept that this might extend the powers of an unscrupulous government. When the Exchequer took its first limited powers to tax the population, nobody could possibly have foreseen the result today!

 

[Racerbear02]

This debate is all very well but on a practical point, but will we who are resident in France have to pay the £88 for an ID card and passport when it comes time for renewal of passport, or can we decline the ID card as we are not UK resident?

I personally would never carry a UK ID card if I lived in the UK, the reasons given for their general introduction are totally pointless, indeed I would imagine that I would be able to buy a fake on the internet even before they became available from the government, 'what man has made, man can make again,' and if I could buy one I feel sure that terrorists and criminals would have them in bulk supply just as they have passports now. I, like a previous poster am also white middle aged male with nothing (well not a lot ) to hide.

I carry a Carte de Sejour and my passport here at all times and would carry an ID card here if required, I have made the decision to live in France and therefore must abide by the rules of the country, their playing field, their ball, their rules, but as stated I would refuse point blank to carry a UK card as I see no valid reason for their introduction.

Just remember, 1984 is only 20 years away

[Dick Smith]

I've just been visited by a friend who is now resident in Spain, and he showed me his ID card. It has his number (for everything) and his photo plus a fingerprint. No-one makes a fuss about it and it cost him less than €7. He finds it invaluable and doesn't understand the fuss in the UK.

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

We will be going to spain tomorrow(20mins away)to do some christmas spendingand will be taking our T.D.S. as ID no problem having to carry it instead of the passport,saves wear and tear on  the passport,still have to take the kids passport but they look forward to the day they can show it at the border control,they have never been asked for it yet.

[I1]

To my mind the fuss in the UK (or at least my fuss) is that, rather than the €7 it looks like we will be expected to pay £40. Whilst the Spanish card includes a fingerprint (generally accepted to uniquely identify somebody), the UK government has decided to go for “high-tech” biometric data where the technology is still immature, unreliable and currently cannot uniquely identify somebody. I would prefer a cheap and reliable card rather than an expensive unreliable card.

I have no problem with carrying an ID card (which is effectively what I do living in France as I am (supposed to) carry my passport all the time).

I think that the UK government had made things harder for themselves in that they have lost the trust of a significant portion of the population. Thus, now when they say it will not be used to infringe liberties and freedoms, people tend not to believe them as they have told us many lies in the past and why should we believe this one ? In addition, where the government passes laws that contravene European Human rights legislation, and have the attitude that it really doesn’t matter too much. A lot of Mr. Blunket’s “bully boy” attitude and tactics have made the introduction of the ID cards a lot less popular due to the mistrust (at least that is my impression).

Countries such as France and Spain have had ID cards for some time and the population has experienced that their governments have not used the cards to infringe liberties and freedoms.

[Quillan]

I was unaware untill yesterday that it is being developed in conjunction with the French hence on the BBC News 24 there were pictures of the card in both French and English format and they look identical apart from the language of course and yes they were two seperate cards not the same one with English on ones side and French on the other.

[I1]

A European wide ID card would be a really good idea. Include your driving licence on it. Maybe E111 (European Health Card or whatever its to be called now), plus probably some other useful things so one could travel round Europe on it (without a passport) – that would be useful to the point where some people (myself included) would start to want one rather than being neutral to negative about it.

Maybe for a European card, Europe could lay down rules and constraints about what countries could and could not do with the card which might help some of the mistrust towards the UK government

[Dick Smith]

What a sensible idea. Which guarantees, of course, that it will never happen.

If it did it could also be used as a pan-European 'entitlement card' rather than just an E111.

[Dick Smith]

Back on DB I see that there is now a call for an inquiry into the inquiry...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4117057.stm

[Quillan]

[quote]A European wide ID card would be a really good idea. Include your driving licence on it. Maybe E111 (European Health Card or whatever its to be called now), plus probably some other useful things so...[/quote]

It's an idea that has been around for a while but it is not in the interests of companies to do this.

Imagine if you only had to carry one card for everything. As well as your sugestions why not add things like organ donor, blood type, credit and bank card details. With modern technology and the memory developments in the elctronic industry the technology is available now. The problem is what will happen to all the companies making credit and debit cards round the world? I suspect such a system would not be in their interest financially that is.

It's abit like the idea years ago of putting peoples photo on credit cards, excellent idea but nobody was interested.

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

Why not just have a micro chip inserted under the skin,then no one need worry about carrying an ID card with all that extra info on it,now where have I heard that idea before,dont laugh it might happen some day,if not today....and be sure big broth is out there.

[Alane]

French people may well carry identity cards - that in itself is not an argument why we should carry one. The French citizen's relationship with the state has traditionally been totally different to that of the British subject and I for one see no reason to change it. The French are no safer from terrorism than us because they carry identity cards nor are they any less likely to be the victims of fraud. My local paper has a story warning shopkeepers to be on the lookout for credit card and cheque fraudsters  - apparently the shopkeepers in Paris are now on the lookout for fraud so the sharpsters are targeting the provinces. Surely the ID card should stop all this - gosh, no it doesn't

The idea that an identity card that is not compulsory will stop identity theft and identity fraud just doesn't hold water. The cards WILL be forged and will just create a sense of security for the average punter which won't be warranted. In addition some of the valid cards will generate duplicate biometrics or will simply fail as our bodies age. Once an identity card has been forged, or the biometrics fail to identify us the consequences for the poor victim will be many times worse than the current situation. Can you imagine what it will be like in a country where we are who our identity card says we are? When the identity card lies or gets it wrong it will place us in an horrific situation.

Maybe I'm just getting old but I no longer buy the idea of a benevolent state. I've seen this government ride roughshod over parliament and while there is currently no real concerns about its intentions I wouldn't want to give them any more control over me than I absolutely have to.

John - Di - you say that you don't see the problem as you are white middle class and don't engage in crime. This is the old "those who do nothing wrong I have nothing to fear" argument. That's fine until the definition of "nothing wrong" changes. Why give the state the power? It doesn't need it, it hasn't demonstrated that it needs it and it's going to charge you handsomely twice over for the privilege of extending it's control over you. First with a project to implement it that is highly likely to fail and then once it's ironed out the quirks into a sub optimal solution will charge you a small fortune for the right to prove who you are when you previously didn't need to do so anyway.

I remain unconvinced.

Best Regards

Alan.

[Iceni]

Anyone who feels really strongly about not carrying id would not live in or even visit a country where such documentation is compulsory. Or can them with the power be trusted more in France than in UK ?

John

[SaligoBay]

Difficult one, John! 

Why don't we start a list of "honest French politicians".

Ummmmmm, nope, the names just aren't rushing to my fingertips right now.   Would anyone care to start?   

[Alane]

John

When in Rome. There is little correspondence between the rules that pertain in one's own country and those that exist in a country that we visit. I can accept that I need a passport to visit someone else's country, not that I need one, or its equivalent, in my own.

I wouldn't choose to live in a country where the president is exempt from criminal prosecution for corruption that is widely accepted as being fact. Where senior members of the judiciary tell me that I should flout the law until someone more powerful than myself tells me to do otherwise.  A country where the press isn't allowed to comment on the hypocrisy of the establishment. A country where the citizens are so disenchanted with the political establishment that the presidential election becomes a run off between a crook and a racist and mainstream politicians are voted out of the race early on because they haven't got a chance.

Such a place might be pleasant to visit but I would expect to be subject to complaints from its citizens as to the corruption of the political establishment. Lo and behold, that's exactly what I get, but I still might ask , what benefit do they get from the compulsory carrying of identity cards.

As to references to Spain and the joys of carrying an identity card there for a give away fee - tell that to the hundreds of thousands, if not millions who were, within living memory, butchered because or their political beliefs. Ask yourself if that would have been possible without ready identification of the population, the picking out of the non believers?

I know that there are currenly few similarities between the UK today and Franco's Spain but experience says that the more powers we give to politicians and the state then the more they will use them.

Still not one real argument for carrying a card, just some snipes at those who don't see the need.

Best Regard

Alan.

[SaligoBay]

I wouldn't choose to live in a country where the president is exempt from criminal prosecution for corruption that is widely accepted as being fact. Where senior members of the judiciary tell me that I should flout the law until someone more powerful than myself tells me to do otherwise.  A country where the press isn't allowed to comment on the hypocrisy of the establishment. A country where the citizens are so disenchanted with the political establishment that the presidential election becomes a run off between a crook and a racist and mainstream politicians are voted out of the race early on because they haven't got a chance.

You're not meant to say things like this about France, Alane!   People prefer to remain in ignorance about French politics.   I mean, all those peops who claim to be leaving the UK because of the govt and having to carry ID cards, etc etc....... they couldn't really admit that they were jumping from the frying pan into the fire, could they?

[Quillan]

I guess the difference between France and the UK is that in general the French don't care who politions are screwing and if they are getting back handers or getting their mates out of prison. They are more interested in them 'getting the job done' and with compulsory voting turnout they have a lot of power. As can been seen in the last presidential elections where in the first round they voted heavily in favour of the ultra right wing just to wake the others up. Could you imagine TB getting his cabinate in once a week and giving each of them brown envelopes with 15,000€ (£10,000) in each just to keep then 'on-side'. Perhaps he does and we just don't know. Ok I know this stopped in France a few years back but I bet they have found another way of doing something to keep the cabinet in line.

The nice little trick of the UK's leaders is the freedom of information act due to come in to effect in January. Is this designed to make people feel safer about identity cards in as much as you can see what the government has on you. Nice idea but as one tory mp said "how comes the amount of shredded waste from Whitehall sent for incineration as doubled in the last two months. Will there be actually anything to read or see when the act comes in to force?

[Teamedup]

Compulsory voting?

[Mazan]

  I mean, all those peops who claim to be leaving the UK because of the govt and having to carry ID cards, etc etc....... they couldn't really admit that they were jumping from the frying pan into the fire, could they?

The French ID card is nothing when compared to the proposed UK one. The proposed UK card will contain three (or more) pieces of computerised biometric data. The French card contains none. The proposed UK card will be issued via a national computer database which will be linked to numerous other such databases. The French card is departmental and, in theory, French law prevents databases being linked.

The French ID card is like a UK driving licence. The proposed UK ID card is a very different affair and would be perfectly at home in the worst dictatorships or police states ever seen on the planet.

And, in case anyone has forgotten, EU citizens no longer need an ID card to live in France. An EU passport is enough (and a UK passport contains no biometric data, yet).

[Quillan]

Hi Mazan,

On BBC News 24 the two cards were shown side by side and looked identical except for the language printed on them. It was implied that they were being developed by this company (didn't mention their name) with joint funding from England and France and that they will be the same. However history has shown that even the BBC is not always right.