Death of Town Centre's(or not)

[Richard-R]

Been living in France coming up to 2 years soon. Noticed in the U.K. over the last few years that town centres are dying for the most part, just pubs and charity shops. This is blaimed on out-of town shopping but here in France out-of town shopping is all the rage but still the town centre's seem to still be alive and well, full of small independent shops, restaurants, cafés and the like. I wonder wht this is? Oh and on a side topic, why in the U.K. do sports shops only sell footware and football shirts ( my local one in London excluded) but here in France you can actually buy sports gear in them?

[Teamedup]

Don't forget that people live in appts in the centre of towns here. I remember walking through Leeds centre one evening last year and all those shops had offices and storage above them, no one really seemed to live there as they do here.

Even in the villages, well those around here, the buildings in the centre are often three or four storey with shops beneath and those etage above the shops have flats. So I think that that does change things somewhat.

[Anton Redman]

In Kingston-upon-Thames there was a good electrical shop. They sold disco lights,sat quality co ax cable and would sort out a replacement battery charger for your mobile phone. The owner was over 70, spoke at least French Swedish Spanish Norwegain German and had been looking for anybody to take over the business for eight years.

In Rochechouart there is a branch of "Pro & Cie" , I buy from them because if I have  problem they will sort it.  Their rent is less than 5% of what a similar building would cost them on the outskirts of a small town in England.

[Val_2]

Funny you should talk about town centres here in France. I've often noticed how they are always vibrant and there are not that many empty shops even if a lot of the tiny boutique/specialist ones never seem to have any customers when I go past and you begin to wonder how they make a living,but they must do. I can't comment on UK town centres as it has been over 6.5 years since I last went there,but from family tell me their local town is a hole with so many boarded up shop fronts and a definate no-go area on Saturdays and evenings. There is a case in the local paper there online today about a robbed shopkeeper having to wait four hours for the police to turn up from less than two miles away. Here I noticed a heavy Police Municipale presence when shopping in St.Brieuc on Dec 22nd and they were all wearing sweatshirts and baseball caps to blend in.

[Alexis]

I think it depends on your definition of town.  Obviously Rennes and Vannes are bustling places but the smaller towns around are dying.  When you get to the large village places, they can be dead.  Josselin is a good case.  It was always geared up for the tourist trade but over the past ten + years I have had a house there  the centre had died.  Perhaps because we have two supermarkets just a walk from the centre.  Shoe shops are now selling antiques, the statue shop of Saints is to be an other agence immobillier, one of the bakers is a bar, the photo shop has been turned back into a house.....  This is without the people who have ceased trading and their shops are empty.  These include butcher's, dress shops and little corner shops.

People travel to the centre commercials to shop. 

Plenty of bars, assurance agencies and banks though...

 

[graham34]

The challenge with identifying trends is there is going to be much conflicting local evidence. I have been familier with many villages and towns in the central Herault in the past 10 years and the small holder facilities have gone from strenght to strengh, for example in Lodeve and Clermont l'Herault. Of course the explanation here is an expanding Montpellier and an increase in all aspects of tourism.

Graham

[Iceni]

I don't know the population level that is required to qualify as a "town" either here or in England but it seems to be much less in France e.g the capital of our commune has no more than 1,000 which in Essex would be a medium village. This supports far more businesses than many small English towns - doctor, pharmacy,  2 garages (1 with fuel pumps), bakery, butcher, tabac, 2 lunchtime only restaurants, 2 bars, mower/chainsaw seller/repairer, grocer, greengrocer, hairdresser, rental of light building plant etc. and there are 2 or 3 closed shops. The nearest supermarkets are 6 or 7 miles away which seems too far for the locals to travel hence continuing local places. This seems to be the case for similar sized "towns" around here.

The Lot is thinly populated (169,000 in 1999), even Cahors (dept capital) is only 25,000 permanent population and our nearest proper town of St Cere is about 4,000. Yes, there are empty shops but the town centre has more and varied businesses than larger English towns and maybe thanks to tourists they seem to thrive.

Back in England (which in most things follows the US) out-of-town shopping has killed town centres whereas this is not the case in the Lot or at least not yet. Because we have not travelled much outside our local patch in the past 2 years I cannot say whether our bit is truly representative of France in general.

Last summer I met a couple of senior Brits who were on a cycling holiday. They had landed in Limoges then went W before meandering down though the Dordogne into the Lot to St Cere. They spoke of many dying village/town centres but our chat was too short for me to gather any detail. Maybe I had better enjoy while I still can.

John

not

[Val_2]

There is a certainly a great divide between France and the UK in my opinion on town and village facilities. My parents live in what was once a small village some three miles from the nearest large town of currently about 85000 people,but now that town has sprawled and the village has been swallowed up although keeping it's identity. There are over 3000 recorded inhabitants inthe village and to date, there is no pharmacy,proper supermarket,hairdresser, post office closed two weeks ago,bakery or library. Just one garage with three pumps, two newsagents, two asian-run "everything sold" small shops,launderette,indian restaurant and fishing tackle shop and a fish and chip shop. I live in a small french village of 870 inhabitants spread out in one of the largest communes for size here and we have two busy garages,a bakery,an Ecomarché,library,post office,hairdresser,three bars,architect,museum and a café. The nearest two banks are less than 3kms away where there is yet another post office,SuperU,small supermarket,shoe shop,florist,funeral parlour x 2,Renault dealer,pharmacy,driving school,2 bakeries,electrical shop,cycle shop and other businesses. It is also amazing how loyal people are too, when it comes to patronising a local business even if the prices are bit higher than the commercial centres of larger supermarkets.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

I don't know why I bother, but this makes me boiling mad. My parents-in-law live in a small town near Manchester. A few years ago one of the major supermarket chains asked for planning permission to build a store in the (at that point) vibrant town centre. As a "sweetner" they offered to assist in the renovation of a canalside area that had been derelict for years, and they were granted permission. Now, the canalside looks really very nice, but the rest of the town centre is derelict and devoid of business, aside from charity shops, takeaways and bars. The supermarket is open 24 hours a day and no-one else can operate. While I could never say that they set out to destroy their competition, the fact remains that there is no longer any competition. But hey, this is the free market. Cheap food doesn't look so cheap when it starts to cost you your community.

[Russethouse]

Even in our local parade of shops we have lost individual traders because the biggest shop which was a newsagents and post office has had a string of owners all of which have decided to sell another line which was someone else's speciality. We used to have a green grocer and general store too, but not now. At present the biggest shop,(post office and newsagents) is a Co op store which sells 'everything'

We see more and more charity shops (4 in our suburb) I believe they get a 'break' on their rates, all well and good, but this has the effect of keeping out other traders because the charities do not have the same overheads to consider. They now sell so many new goods (and I am not talking third world produce here, but stuff that I could go and buy from a 'gift-ware wholesaler')that they effect regular shopkeepers.

I feel a 'grumpy old woman' moment coming on

[Sprogster]

The out of town shopping facilities are not directly comparable between the UK and France.

The difference in the UK being the popularity of huge American style regional indoor 'MALL' shopping centres.

These indoor 'MALLS' like Bluewater in Kent are absolutely massive, being a town in their own right,containing every known high street shop and department store. 

Throw in acres of free parking and more often than not  direct access from motorways and main highways, and not surprisingly smaller shopping centres in adjacent towns die.

 

[Tresco]

Sprogster, and others, they seem to die, and then..... oh, hang on, they're not quite dead, they change, they get 'worse' then 'better' gradually, and hopefully, (over a very long period of time in some cases) or they are formally 'regenerated'. This is often unsuccessful.

As someone else pointed out much earlier, this sort of discussion can't help but be regional, in terms of each posters experience and knowledge - the above is mine, that's all.

tresco