Leaving my child behind

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

I would really appreciate some advice from other parents who have left their child/ren behind when they moved to France. I am moving to France from Australia.

My son is 21 and quite looking forward to my leaving... as boys that age do!  

My problem is with my daughter..... and this is where I would appreciate some alternate views.

My daughter is only 12 years old....   Two years ago she went to see what it would be like to live with her father and his new wife.  This was an amiable transfer and my daughter was also quite happy with the move.  She has thrived in the country environment and has been very happy where she is living for the last two years.  I phone her every few weeks and she comes to stay two or three times a year.   

My new husband and I desperately want to move to France and have already put our business and home on the market in preparation.  I feel that my daughter is settled and happy where she is and think that she would love yearly holidays in France.  I'm hoping that if I offer her father sole custody of her (which I still have) that he will allow her to have a passport to visit me in France.

The problem is that I am feeling a huge amount of parental guilt.  My parents abandoned me at age 14 and I am terrified of the emotional effects that my moving to another country would have on her.  There is no question that my daughter is happier living with her father as they live in a small country town with a HUGE family.  When I try to talk to my daughter about my moving to France she get's tears in her eyes and says "I'll get used to it."

What do I do?  I feel so guilty!

[Tresco]

This is a truly difficult situation for you.

The problem is that I am feeling a huge amount of parental guilt. 

And of course there is no predicting how you will feel after, if you move.

My parents abandoned me at age 14 and I am terrified of the emotional effects that my moving to another country would have on her. 

I think this is clearly going to affect your view, but the terms you use don't imply much similarity with your own case.

When I try to talk to my daughter about my moving to France she get's tears in her eyes and says "I'll get used to it."

are you telling her that you are moving, or that you are considering it. The fact is, she would get used to it, but then there's the guilt on your part, and the possible effects on her to consider, the problem as I said is that there is simply no way of knowing. I'm sorry this is more questions than answers.  

I'm sending you a private message.

[Coco]

I don't have any kids so can't comment from the parental point of view.  However, my parents divorced when I was 8 and I lived with my mum.  Although my dad only lived about 150 miles away I still only saw him during the Easter and summer holidays but we wrote regularly.... inititally.  By the time I was 12 my visits had gone down to about once a year and eventually I hardly got to see him at all (not through wont of asking on my part, he was always "too busy").  He then came up with some feable excuse about it being too upsetting for both of us on parting.  What a load of old tosh - of course it was emotional and upsetting but as a kid you bounce back within 24 hours, and as a father, no matter how upsetting it was, it was something he SHOULD have had to live with for my sake.

What I'm trying to say is, I don't think distance is the big issue here if you intend to have your daughter over to France annually.  The most important thing is that, even though there will be 1000s of miles separating you, she should feel that she is still part of your life, that you miss her and that you care about her.  With email and webcams it should be really easy to keep in touch long distance and tell her all about your new life, what you can do together when she visits etc and send lots of pictures.  And then, of course, when she does come over to France, make her feel really wanted.  She'll be the envy of all her friends going on such "exotic" holidays.

Ultimately only you can decide whether the move will work within your relationship.  But speaking from the point of view of a child separated from a parent, it was the contact in one form or another that was important to me, not so much how often I saw my dad, I would just liked to have felt that he cared and was interested in me.

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

Thank you for your viewpoint Tresco.  You are very true that my situation was very different to that of my daughters.  Having had to spend years overcoming feelings of abandonment, I am very sensitive to making sure that my children know that I will never abandon them. 

I guess the question is "Is moving to France and seeing her once a year rather than 2-3 times a year equivalent to abandonment?"

When she used to visit me before my medical breakdown two weeks ago, I would never have time to talk to her anyway.  I was always "I'm too busy, I have to work".  I know that I have to have at least two years off work and, no disrespect to the beauty of Australia, the thought of spending it in this place leaves me cold.  If I am somehow going to learn to stop working myself into an early grave, I need to be somewhere with history, art, and culture to keep my mind occupied. 

I am excited about having my daughter visit in France for six weeks a year because she has a similar passion for music, history and culture that we have only ever been able to experience in books and on television.

I have not yet told her that I am definitely leaving.  Perhaps I am waiting for her to give her approval for me to leave her.  I understand now that of course she will never give me that and that I'm trying to take the cowards way out.

I just had a stupid thought..... When my daughter went to live with her father, we all said that she could try it out for six months or a year and if she didn't like it she could come home.  Why can't I do the same?  Of course I can.  I will still have three properties in Australia when I buy my home in France, so if I want to come back I can.  Boy... I could even spend six months in each country!  Why am I so hard on myself.

I am going to go, but not with the thought that I am leaving Australia forever.  I'll buy a place in France, enjoy the culture and if either my daughter or myself get miserable then I'll come back and when she is 16 years old, she could even come with me! 

Feeling much much better.

Lynda

[Ejc]

Hi,

This is a tough one - it's not like those of us hoping across the channel - and just a hour or so flight away from blighty. We have the same sort of "spread" of family with two older boys and a much younger one -our older sons have already worked out that there's some cachet in being able to suggest to friends - that a weekend break in France may be a fun thing to do.

You know your daughter and your family's set up and will make your own decisions - but given the distances would you be able to delay a permenant move for a few years? I'm not sure I could move that far away from our youngest. She'll be 16 going on 21 in just 4 years and such a long distance move probably won't be so daunting then.

What ever you decide - all the best 

[Pangur]

Practically, how feasible is a yearly trip to France for your daughter?  Is she the kind of child that won't mind making such a long journey on her own or spending her entire summer holiday in a strange, far away country?  Will there be any problems financing it every year? 

Do you have the kind of relationship with your ex that he will help make this trip happen and support it, or will he be putting obstacles in the way?  Will he be upset that he doesn't get to spend holidays with his daughter?  I would imagine his support for you might make the transition easier for your daughter.

Best of luck, it's a tough call - can you not leave it a few years until she is a bit older and will be able to understand a bit better? 

 

[Tresco]

When my daughter went to live with her father, we all said that she could try it out for six months or a year and if she didn't like it she could come home.  Why can't I do the same?  Of course I can. 

Good thinking!!!!!!! Crikey I have seen that said so many times on this forum. Even without the situation you have, it makes so much sense, it just didn't occur to me

 

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

[quote]I don't have any kids so can't comment from the parental point of view. However, my parents divorced when I was 8 and I lived with my mum. Although my dad only lived about 150 miles away I still onl...[/quote]

Thank you Coco for your point of view.  It was kind of what my gut instinct was telling me.  My daughter has just got her first mobile phone so I'll be able to sms her and send her pictures of where I am.  Phone calls are cheap as chips at the moment so I'll still be able to phone every 2-3 weeks.  Sometimes she is even annoyed if I ring this often because she is so busy with her friends.  I can also send her letters from France as well.  My 21yo son will be able to fly with her to France so she wont be alone on the flights.

When my daughter was younger, her father was lucky to see her once a year or even make a phone call once every six months because he was 'too busy'.  It wasn't until years later when I remarried that he realised that being a father was far more than providing sperm.  He became an amazing away-dad and began to treat my daughter the way she deserved.  He has since married an amazing woman and I felt he had earned the opportunity to have a real-family when his wife was found to be barren.  Funnily enough, they say having a child in the house has made many barren women fertile and she gave birth only two weeks ago.   

From the perspective of a mother, I know the heartache of a parent not giving attention to their children.  Luckily enough for my daughter, the situation turned around and has brought her much happiness (and a new little (step) brother!)  I think I shall post this sentence with my list of affirmations:

 But speaking from the point of view of a child separated from a parent, it was the contact in one form or another that was important to me, not so much how often I saw my dad, I would just liked to have felt that he cared and was interested in me.

I wish I could say something to alleviate your experience, but I'm afraid all I can offer is that your experience will help this parent remember the point of view of a child.  Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

 

 

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

[quote]Practically, how feasible is a yearly trip to France for your daughter? Is she the kind of child that won't mind making such a long journey on her own or spending her entire summer holiday in a stran...[/quote]

I wish there was a way I could freeze time until there was a suitable time for me to leave her.  I wouldn't find it any easier to leave her during the troublesome teenage years than I would now, so I would have to wait until she was happily married with children before I left her, but then I probably couldn't leave my grandchildren and then I would never go.

Financially there is no problems flying both of our children to France for a six week yearly holiday. Summer holidays in the Northern Hemisphere will not conflict with summer holidays in the southern hemisphere, so all that will happen is that she will extend her june/july holidays for a few weeks and have them with me.

I have already considered that he may not allow her to have a passport.  There is no extra cost for us to fly to Australia once a year than to fly them to us, so we could always come to her should he be too frightened that I may not return her (even though I have legal sole custody).  That would only be for the next 3-4 years until she is 16 and can legally get her own passport without consent from both parents.

I know where you are coming from when you ask what sort of child is she...  She is a very independent child with a "what you see is what you get" attitude.  My 21 yo son would be flying over with her, so she wouldn't have to deal with the flight alone.

I wish so dearly that I could have kept up my gruelling lifestyle for just a few more years, but having had my first child at just 16, my body has said 'no more'.  I need a major lifestyle change and it will need to be one that will keep me entertained because boredom will just send me back into workaholic mode.  I am hoping that there is enough art/culture/history/music in France and the surrounding countries to keep my mind occupied for at least two years.  Australia just does not interest me anymore.  One more gum tree or kangaroo and I'll scream!!!!! 

 

[Russethouse]

Does your daughter have access to a computer - you don't actually mention it, if she does (or could have) then as Coco says it will be easy to keep in touch, email, 'chat,' web cams etc. Make sure you are able to take pics and send them to her - keep her in touch etc. Sometimes send her a postcard or small gift - you know, 'I saw this and thought of you'......

My best friend was bought up by a truly dreadful mother, deposited and picked up again like a library book, but she has used the insight she gained in her childhood to make sure that she is a great mother to her own kids - I'm sure you will do the same.

The best of luck - I hope you feel better soon !

[Sprogster]

No stranger can really advise properly in what is such a personal intense situation.

As a parent of teenage children I could not imagine being at the opposite side of the world to them. But then that is me.

My wife has a sister in New Zealand and despite the internet, communication is more difficult than you think with the time difference.

What ever you do don't rush your decision. In six years your daughter will be an adult and you cannot get her childhood back. However, France will always be there.

Follow your instincts and good luck.

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

[quote]No stranger can really advise properly in what is such a personal intense situation. As a parent of teenage children I could not imagine being at the opposite side of the world to them. But then that...[/quote]

Thank you so much for your reply Sprogster. Alternate views is exactly what I am looking for. 

I have wanted to move to France for the last six years.  My now-husband and I have always said that as soon as both children have left home then we will go.  I didn't expect us to be child-free until my daughter was at least 18, but now we find ourselves with an empty nest and nothing to hold us back except for a change in her visits with me from two-weeks three times a year to six-weeks once a year.  That is the only change that my move will make to her.

I am excited about spending six weeks with her each year showing her all around Europe.  All she has ever had is a mother that has been too busy to spend time with her.  She loves history/art/culture/music as much as I do, so I hope that her childhood will be full of fantastic memories of beautiful summers in France (as opposed to the very cold winter where she lives). 

I guess if she finds once a year not enough, we could always fly her over twice a year for three weeks at a time.  We could always spend six months in each country. I suppose I have already given up a lot of her childhood by allowing her to be integrated into her fathers family, but I have already dealt with that loss. 

Thank you for your insight.  It has helped me to understand my importance in her childhood and will help me to make the most of our six weeks a year together. We have six weeks a year together in whatever form and I think now that I have had this breakdown and am forced to not work, I hope that I can give her the best six weeks of her year in whatever country!

Lynda

[RayB]

[quote]Thank you so much for your reply Sprogster. Alternate views is exactly what I am looking for. I have wanted to move to France for the last six years. My now-husband and I have always said that as ...[/quote]

For what is it worth, Lynda, I went through basically the same scenario many years ago. Ayn Rand wrote a book called 'The Virtue of Selfishness'. A simplification of what I got out of it was that if one doesn't put themselves into a position that they can feel good about themselves, they won't be of any value to those around them. From what you have written I gather that your daughter has a good, stable life. That is good.

Think of it this way . . . you are not 'leaving' her, you are just moving further away from her. You will always be her mother and she will always be your daughter no matter where you live. As long as you maintain that relationship the rest is irrelevent.

My 43 yr old daughter lives in Denver, CO and we live in France (Americans) and before that 17 yrs in the UK. Come the 24th of this month she will have been happily married for 21 years and she is still my 'little girl' and I am still 'Papa'.

Take care of yourself and everyone will benefit. You owe it to all of you.

[Jomo]

Hi,

I can`t imagine what you must be going through. However personally I don`t think its something I could do. You must be still relatively young and she will not be a child for very much longer. France will always be there, however your daughters childhood won`t. This is just my personal view and please dont

take offence, but think carefully.

Whatever you decide to do good luck

Joan

www.beaulyinternational.com

[Iceni]

"As a parent of teenage children I could not imagine being at the opposite side of the world to them."

There will be many parents of teenagers that would love to be half a world away.

So here is my twopennorth - most children will leave the nest at a moment's notice as soon as it suits, with nary a thought for their parents. So why shouldn't you do your own thing while you are still young enough to do it ?

In our household the only opinions that matter are Di's and mine -  selfish ? Maybe - but honest with it.

John

not

 

 

 

[RayB]

[quote]Thank you so much for your reply Sprogster. Alternate views is exactly what I am looking for. I have wanted to move to France for the last six years. My now-husband and I have always said that as ...[/quote]

Hi Lynda -

Let me add one more thought - Guilt 'trips' lead to nowhere. Don't even think about it.

[Russethouse]

I think you need to have an honest discussion with your ex and importantly his present wife. If they are supportive it would be so much easier for your daughter.

[Tresco]

Guilt 'trips' lead to nowhere.

Ahhh but they can, and do, bad places mainly.

Don't even think about it.

It's almost certain that Lynda will feel some  guilt, given what she is proposing, and particularly the distance involved.

I think Lynda does need to think about it, because it's almost certain that she will feel some  guilt, given what she is proposing, and particularly the distance involved.

Thinking about it may help her put systems in place to guard against it developing into/becoming a serious problem

[RayB]

[quote]Guilt 'trips' lead to nowhere. Ahhh but they can, and do, bad places mainly. Don't even think about it. It's almost certain that Lynda will feel some guilt, given what she is proposing, and p...[/quote]

Alright . . Alright!

Staying within the context of this discussion, simply add 'good' to my statement.

**It's almost certain that Lynda will feel some guilt, given what she is proposing, and particularly the distance involved.

I think Lynda does need to think about it, because it's almost certain that she will feel some guilt, given what she is proposing, and particularly the distance involved.

Thinking about it may help her put systems in place to guard against it developing into/becoming a serious problem**

Of course. You are taking my comments too literaly. If one makes a decision based upon guilt, it could, and in my opinion, would be a serious mistake and could be the basis for all kinds of resentment in the future. Guilt almost always leads to resentment. Everyone's good health must be taken into consideration. For my own health, I had to leave 20 years ago and if I hadn't, you wouldn't be reading this today.

[Tresco]

Alright . . Alright!

Staying within the context of this discussion, simply add 'good' to my statement.

Yeeeooowch RAY.

I thought it was in context! And I agree with your basic premise too!

aaaarrrrgh

[RayB]

[quote]Alright . . Alright! Staying within the context of this discussion, simply add 'good' to my statement . Yeeeooowch RAY. I thought it was in context! And I agree with your basic premise too! aaaa...[/quote]

**aaaarrrrgh [Smile]

LOL! Well, whatever she decides I know we both wish her well and that it all turns out for the best. It is not an easy decision.

Nice 'talking' to you, Tresco.

[Tresco]

Hi Ray

I think we may have been inadvertently at cross purposes here. I agree with you that guilt is a horrible destuctive thing, best avoided.

I hope that I was following your comment by 'adding good', ok, slightly qualified, but following on from whatyou and others were suggesting nonetheless.

Yes, I do wish Lynda the best in the world, based on the sheer goodwill she has shown all of us in our responses to this difficult and emotional question, but also, because of she was brave enough to  share with us a 'past' that is not run of the mill, and dealt with the various replys with extraordinary equanimity.

Sometimes I am surprised when people reveal so much, but the way Lynda has done it, and responded so positively to things, well, as someone who does not have a run of the mill past, I like it, big time.

[RayB]

[quote]Hi Ray I think we may have been inadvertently at cross purposes here. I agree with you that guilt is a horrible destuctive thing, best avoided. I hope that I was following your comment by 'adding go...[/quote]

**I like it, big time.**

Yep!

[Tresco]

Looking at the time difference, Lynda may be here soon. She will probably be glad this little thing got sorted before bed time

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

[quote]Looking at the time difference, Lynda may be here soon. She will probably be glad this little thing got sorted before bed time[/quote]

Good morning! 

I loved reading your reply's, especially the concept of guilt.  I personally see a big difference between feeling guilty and carrying guilt.  Feeling guilty about something that I am about to do is what has brought me to you wonderful people and has helped me work through my thoughts and work on the situation, so that by the time that I actually do it, there is no guilt to be felt later on.  Does that make sense? I think that the concept of carrying guilt is when you know something is the wrong thing and you still go ahead and do it.  Feeling guilty is when I felt that I might be doing the wrong thing, so I fiddle with the situation so everyone is happy.  If in then end I knew that I was going to carry guilt after arriving in France, I would not go.  Either everyone is okay or it doesn't happen.

I really appreciate the comments about missing out on her childhood. That is indeed an extremely major decision but one that I feel was made two years ago. I think it is easy to confuse my moving to France with missing out on my daughters childhood.  I already made the decision to miss out on most of her childhood when I let her go and live with her father two years ago.  I am already missing out on her childhood whether I am in Australia or France. Her childhood and my part in it is not in question.  I only see her for only six weeks a year no matter where I live in the world.  She has never had weekend visits or anything like that with either parents.  She has always had a permenant mum & dad and a holiday mum & dad.  She sees this distinction very clearly.  When she was living with me she would never ask after her father and now she is with him, she never asks after me.  She lives very much in the moment. 

This is how far I've gotten so far with my thinking ......  I should never have said to my daughter "What do you think if maybe I went to France?"  Of course she will always say no.  I'm the adult, not her.  I have also been very irresponsible by not speaking to her father, which I have now told myself I must do within the next week (gulp).  My daughter will be here in the next couple of weeks for the winter holidays and I will tell her that I AM going to go to France and spending some time overseas.  I will explain that we will keep a house in both France and Australia, so we can hop back and forward and she can come whenever she wants to.  I will show her pictures of all the places that I want to show her. She loves culture and history and will love France.  All we need to do is remain totally flexible based on both her and my needs.  If she knows whenever she wants to see me she can, I know she will be okay for me to leave.   This will also be the adventure of her life too!

Then... I will have no guilt because we can do whatever we want.  Six months in France, six months in Australia OR she could spend summer holidays with us in France and we could come to Australia for summer holidays.  The options are endless and I think as long as we remain totally flexible (and we can afford to) then there is absolutely nothing to feel guilty about. The worst that can happen is that we spend the next four years paying for lots of airline tickets, as long as everyone is okay.

Sound okay?

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