Blair and his rebates

[Deimos]

I don’t understand the intricacies of the CAP and thus cannot comment on its rights and wrongs. However, if it is so wrong, why is Mr. Blair introducing it now rather than at the “major reform” in 2003. If it is wrong now, surely it was just as wrong in 2003 and surely he should have refused to agree with the changes then rather than wait until now ?

What disappoints me (and ignoring blame) is that once again the UK is isolating itself from Europe. To quote from a Guardian report “Mr Juncker (holder of the EU Presidency) also said he would refrain from giving Britain any advice on how to handle its presidency of the EU, which starts in three weeks, since it had shown itself unwilling to heed any counsel.”.

The figures from Anton Redman were very interesting. UK people pay only £10 per head per year more than the French whilst the Dutch pay £50 per head more than the UK (£60 per head more than the French).

Ian

[Tourangelle]

I don't think we can really say that Britain is in isolation given that Spain and Sweden also voted against the budget proposals. The CAP issue has come up now because of European enlargement and that is why it was not a bit issue before.

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

Sorry, this post has nothing to do with the 'rebate' (about which 'on nous rebat les oreilles' every minute of the day -sorry for this most appalling bilingual play on words involving the well-used French set phrase 'rebattre les oreilles').

I am intrigued by La Tourangelle's username. I happen to know Tours a bit, well, mainly the bars in that most delightful of quartier, namely Les Halles/Place Plumereau area (from my student days -not in Tours, but had a sweetheart there) and the rock scene venues (BTW, does that great rock venue on one of the islands still exist ? saw some memorable concerts there, the Toy Dolls' one will always feature highly on that list !). Anyway, during one of those very 'Fac de Lettres' drunken discussions, one local layabout bet with me that the real name of the inhabitants of Tours was 'les Turons' and not 'les Tourangeaux' (as everybody call them). Being equally well oiled, and although totally ignorant on the subject, I foolishly took him up on his bet (which inevitably involved lashings of wine and a few 'formidables'). When we sobered up and re-emerged, 48 hrs later, we duly checked and to my surprise 'mon compagnon de beuverie' was right. So, technically, you are a fraud La Tourangelle and should be renamed 'la turone'. Did you know that ?

[Deimos]

But surely they knew about European Enlargement 2 years ago ? I thought it took an age for new countries to join.

My understanding was that Spain voted against the budget as it was seeking a longer transition period of reductions in cash going to help develop its poorer regions and not because it supported the UK’s stance on CAP.

[Tourangelle]

Je tiens à mon nom d'emprunt! Besides which I don't mind being called a total fraud as I don't live in Tours any more!

I seem to remember that the CAP was talked about as being a potential problem when enlargement was discussed, but nobody really wanted to deal with the issue. But now it can no longer be ignored it becomes an issue whereas a couple of years ago it was swept under the carpet. I was reading the Italian papers this morning and Berlusconi seemed to be dismissing the whole budget problem and saying everybody was getting worked up over nothing! It'll be interesting to see how things develop given that it seems that Schroeder is on his way out...

[Missy]

[quote]Sorry, this post has nothing to do with the 'rebate' (about which 'on nous rebat les oreilles' every minute of the day -sorry for this most appalling bilingual play on words involving the well-used Fr...[/quote]

Another play on word!!

'Blair, Nous on ne peut pas le Blairer!!'

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Turnip]

Hopefully the UK will pull out of the EU

[Owens88]

Can anybody remember when the eu was sold (to us Brits) as a  free trade area, more formalised and integrated than some, like efta that existed at the time ?

To be fair I don't think the French ever agreed with that script and have always played a 'localisation' game, except it is now proving more difficult to do that with movable labour/professional services.

Whether its Iraq or the eu or (name your issue) we'll be lied to by people who feel they can get away with it.

It will be interesting to see how things pan out. The press on the brit side of the channel don't actually say the following, but feed the following illusions:

*Chirac is a spent force, internally and within the peer group.

*CAP is not forever.

*The euro may not be forever.

Any comments ?

 

[Teamedup]

That was what I understood Owens, a more or less free trade area. I don't know how it got to the point where power hungry people seem to want a United States of Europe....... how is that for an oxymoron. I am against the idea of the USE.

The CAP should have been sorted out years ago. I understand europe's need to feed itself, but it has been a scandal.  And why, as we are all pumping money into the EU and the CAP that there are so many sorts of fruit and veg in the supermarkets from anywhere but europe. It just doesn't make sense to me.

 

ps For the first time I can remember, I don't think Blair is talking twaddle about this.

[Iceni]

Ah Turnip, I take it that you do not live in France, if the UK pulls out of the EU, living in France for many of the current UK ex-pats will be a very difficult if not impossible business and the really good news is that as most exports from the UK go to the EU, the UK will have an even bigger hole in its economy that it currently has.

We keep being told that a CDS is no longer necessary but have started the process to get ours. If needs be we will go down the route of getting French citizenship or the equivalent - I left the UK and if I cannot live in France will go somewhere else to live - I hope never to have to return to the UK on a permanent basis.

The mistake was enlarging the EU.

If Gordon Brown's statements are factual there is no reason for the most successful EU country to hold on to a rebate which it no longer needs. Why should the less successful countries hand over their hard earned cash when TB and GB's country obviously does not need it?

TU, I never buy veg and fruit in a supermarket - I buy in the market and check country of origin - I eat seasonal local produce - cheaper and far tastier.

[Alane]

The country with the highest per capita income in the EU is Luxembourg which is a significant net recipient of EU funds. Greece on the other hand which is one of the poorest nations gets a pittance. Britain contributes over twice as much as France, even with the rebate - depending on which set of figures one believes of course. The budget process is a mess and Blair is right to say the whole process should be reviewed before Britain even thinks about handing back the rebate.

Alan

 

[Deimos]

The thing that I have trouble with in all this is the fact that Blair only started arguing strongly/publicly/etc. about the CAP review when it was proposed that the UK start reducing its rebate. Had he started raising it strongly and publicly before this (e.g. “when I’m president of Europe I will review the CAP …”), then it might seem a bit less like him squabbling back at Chriac.

When one joins a “club”, there are “swings and roundabouts” – you gain in some respects whilst losing out in others. At the end of the day, being a member carried its own benefits. As Iceni points out quote:“is that as most exports from the UK go to the EU”. UK may “win” on exports and loses on CAP – maybe the two tend to counter each other and balance things out a bit. UK seems to always want everything in “its favour”. To an extent it will take the benefits but not accept any negatives.

There seems to be quite a lot of “variability” in the figures being quoted (maybe not the first time UK supplied facts have been “questionable”). If the UK pays £31 per head and France £21 per head and the two countries have close on the same populations (France 60,180,529 and UK 60,094,648 as of July 2003), then does the UK pay twice the amount that France does ? Similarly, Blair is arguing about the 40% going on CAP and ignoring that this is already dropping to 29% in the budget 2007 to 2013.

Personally I am in favour of a “United states of Europe”. I think in the world today there is a need for “significant countries” to counter and balance other “significant countries” otherwise large countries just do what they want, when they want and how they want. Europe now has more companies in the Fortune 500 than the US (plus many other financial measures showing similar things). I also think that people are people and most people in Europe have similar desires and aims. There are regional variations within the UK and there are between European countries. I would hope our society can embrace these differences and work together rather than continue to argue over “self interest”.

(Just my personal opinion)

Ian

[Alane]

While it is true that the value of UK exports to Europe is high the trade balance is in deficit. The rest of Europe send far more goods to the UK than travel in the reverse direction. Even if the UK were to negotiate an exit from the EU it is inconceivable that the rest of the EU wouldn't want to retain the free trade status quo as did Norway when they exited. The European Dream was something that I grew up with and was ingrained in my thinking from an early age. More recently I've become more questioning and as per the point made earlier come to wonder what the UK really gets from all this.The relative figures for contributions are freely available to those who want to see them.

What seems to be getting lost in all the histrionics is that it wasn't the UK that started this argument. It was an attempt by Chirac to divert attention from his failure to get a "Yes" vote in the French referendum after HIS decision to call it in the first place. The arguments about the CAP then arose as a result. He transparently now wants to make sure that the UK presidency is seen as a failure to divert the attention from his failure.

This however is all a smokescreen. The fundamental argument is between those who want to see the EU abandon the move towards federalism and a "one size fits all" constitution and political integration along the French social model (with protection from cheap Polish Plumbers taking work from their French equivalents who only want to work a 35 hour week) and those who want to see the EU as a vibrant trading bloc where the state doesn't get in the way of enterprise and able to take on competition from China and the Asian economies.

The United States of Europe concept with Germany and France in the driving seat wouldn't allow for the differences in approaches in different countries. A looser trading bloc arrangement could allow for a France that wants to subsidise its own farmers and keep a 35 hour working week while allowing Lithuanian plumbers to work an 80 hour week if they chose. It really isn't as simple as either Blair or Chirac would like us to believe.

Alan.

[Teamedup]

I agree with Alane on this.

Just my opinion ofcourse is that I think that the french and german vision is a great europe with them at the helm. And then that thing niggles at me, that that little vision is not there for the first time. Only I don't think that they think 'them' at the helm. I think the germans think Germany should lead and the french think France should.

 

[Miki]

".....Just my opinion of course is that I think that the french and german vision is a great europe with them at the helm"

No change then, from the original 1950's concept !

[Deimos]

And in today’s (UK) news (quote): “Tony Blair today admitted the UK's EU rebate was "an anomaly that has to go" ( http://politics.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,9061,1511310,00.html?gusrc=rss). So what was with all the “is not up for negotiation”, “UK will use its veto to keep rebate”, etc. and all the squabbles, and the trouble it caused and now he says it “has to go”.

Proud to be British ?

Ian

[Teamedup]

Dear me, backing Blair again, I am.

I thought that he had always said that it couldn't go before whilst everything else was such a mess. That means that I thought he meant that it would go when the rest was sorted out. So I don't think he is back peddling on this.

 

TU, english, never think of myself as british.

[Hoddy]

According to the BBC, Tony Blair said that the budget was “merely a corrective mechanism designed to address an underlying imbalance in the budget.”

This argument began with Jacques Chirac saying that Britain’s rebate had to be cut without any recognition of the underlying problem. In my view Tony Blair was right to say no to that.

I’m not sure what this has to do with being proud to be British, but I am.

Hoddy

[Deimos]

Surely the CAP is only one of many problems facing Europe and that Mr Blair used it “to get back at” Chirac for raising the rebate issue. After all, Mr. Blair did not raise the CAP as an issue when it was reformed in 2003 (only 2 years ago) – when he was in full knowledge of the expansion, etc.. I think he raised it and became argumentative because he was doing the same as Chirac and just going for a squabble. After all, there are loads of other issues facing Europe that need addressing but that don’t directly impact France that he could have raised.

He was saying “Its not up for negotiation” and “We will use our veto to keep it” (pretty black and white language) yet now he is saying “it will have to go” – the then and now appear to me to show a change of stance.

Had Mr. Blair used the language he is now using I would have thought the recent summit would have gone somewhat smoother.

Ian

[Miki]

Deimos,

Surely you realise that Chirac had no worries at all about the rebate until his defeat in the referendum and his continuing loss of support. Having lost that, he has once again taken the normal French route and blames someone else and this time, it is the British for their large rebate causing problems. No more no less, it is basically that simple.

Blair is at least using the possible negotiation of the UK rebate to lever the French away from their HUGE agricole subsidies, Chirac is putting up sod all, after all, as TU has stated, the Germans and the French are the "natural and original" leaders of the EU and therefore they are the only ones that know what is best !

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

The CAP is an abberation, and the biggest con invented since the EU creation, everybody knows that in France. Close to where I was brought up in 77, and also in nearby 45 (arable, sugar, etc.) it has always been a byword for ...(actually, no, I'd be censored), especially by the likes of companies such as Beghin-Say or other agro-alimentaire giants, who get the yearly grants (to the tunes of £300 m for one company alone), and then sell on their subsidised produce to the sort of countries the Dirty Huitaine up North in Gleneagles are pretending to be wanting to help. How chivalrous of them. Of course, makes sense for both Blair and Chirac to want to defend their 'bifteck' tooth and nail, the poor sods have only got that at the minute to regain some popularity (for want of a better term) in their own respective countries: to be seen to be preserving national interest.

[Jo53]

Deimos, I think you're wrong in that Blair and Straw definitely said they would put the British rebate on the table as part of a reexamination of the whole EU budget. But Chirac refused to discuss budget reform. This budget has to last until 2013, and that's far too long to carry on with a budget that is unfair to many countries (but notably not to France) and is stuck years in the past.

Blair's proposal now is that farm subsidies should be concentrated on the poor 'new' countries, and that rich countries who want to subsidise their farmers should do so themselves. Seems a pretty sensible idea. He is also prepared that Britain should pay more, but will not do so simply to shore up the current system, and I think that is right.

Jo

[Miki]

[quote]The CAP is an abberation, and the biggest con invented since the EU creation, everybody knows that in France. Close to where I was brought up in 77, and also in nearby 45 (arable, sugar, etc.) it has ...[/quote]

Nicely put Vraititi, it come back to what I said some time back, most of the subsidies France collects goes to the rich and well off, that is what will finally stick in the gullet of many who have half heartedly opposed this for years, the Dutch will really stick to their guns on this, as will others who are slowly but surely thinking that most of the current system has to change, this where it will get sticky, no leader wants to go back to its party and the people to say that they given something away !

PSG !! come on, with your good English, you must surely come over to the "boys at the Bridge" and watch some decent stuff

[SaligoBay]

The CAP is an abberation, and the biggest con invented since the EU creation, everybody knows that in France.

Oh Vraititi, where were you the other night when I was leaped upon with great savagery about this?        I was told all sort of things to prove that Blair is completely wrong and France is completely right, based on arguments like "in mon village 50 years ago, 20 out of 30 families were agriculteurs, now there are only 5 left", and so on.

Don't you just hate being put on the spot like that!   You know, when you suddenly feel you're being held solely responsible for the actions of an entire nation, and you don't even LIVE there!!

 

 

[Miki]

But don't you see SB, you are British, there is a likelihood that you probably know Monsieur Blair and they are thinking that on your next vsit, you can personally take their message to your leader.

Now all you have to do, is sort out a suitable reply from Mr Blair when you return from your next visit to Downing Street. Just think of the rue cred you will have at work...............especially if you decide to tell them that votre ami, Tony, told you to tell them to "hop off"