The good old days

[SaligoBay]

One for the forum oldies here.   Hasn't the spirit of this forum changed?   For the better, I hasten to add!

What happened to all the rose-tinted loonies who were soooooo defensive about France?   The slightest suggestion that there might be a tiny imperfection in their dream country, and wallop, they'd hit you with the dreaded "if it's so bad, why don't you go back where you came from?".      I'm psychologically scarred at being called a narrow-minded, dog-hating Little Englander (I mean, come ON!!) after asking about dogs in restaurants and supermarkets.

And all those pantomime sketches about crime, where have they gone?  You must remember them....... I moved to France because there's no crime in France...... oh yes there is..... oh no there isn't, I've been here 3 days and I haven't heard of any burglaries or murders in my commune of 2 houses yet...... oh yes there is...... oh no there isn't, you're just being negative, why don't you go back to where you came from?   And so on, ad infinitum!

And a whole thread about travail noir?   Unthinkable before, without the pompous "we're guests in their country, and to break the law dishonours our hosts" brigade.

So what's happened?  Have all those fadas gone back to where they came from, ou quoi?  

 

[Creusois]

Quoi!

[RayB]

[quote]One for the forum oldies here. Hasn't the spirit of this forum changed? For the better, I hasten to add! What happened to all the rose-tinted loonies who were soooooo defensive about France? Th...[/quote]

Cheer up, Poor Soul, 'I'M' still here and agree with 'them'!!

[Teamedup]

I must be the heat Saligo, I actually started a thread along these lines last night, then thought I wouldn't. I'm pleased you did though, having the way with words you have.

 It was said recently that many people wouldn't post because of 'certain' posters. Which I'm sure is true. I always wonder how these people with such high hopes and obvious sensibilities manage here. Especially when a french person or several tell them how things are, as many french people have a real talent for this. A slight air of being condescending and obnoxious and most certainly 'right' and sometimes closing with 'pourtant c'est vrai' at which point 'fin' should magically appear, as those words signify the end of not only their closing argument, but that particular discussion. I have a great admiration for this, would that I were so sure of myself. But these gems can be shocking, brutal  and hurtful when one is not acclimatised.

There are some posters who have now been here some time and I feel have changed.

You are right though we haven't had the pantomime for quite some time and I think in general it is a better board for that. I also think it is a better board for not having a rosy hue, which I found shocking and surreal when I first found this board and if anyone thinks that rosy was all nice and fluffy, it wasn't. It was poisonous sometimes.

[RayB]

[quote]I must be the heat Saligo, I actually started a thread along these lines last night, then thought I wouldn't. I'm pleased you did though, having the way with words you have. It was said recently tha...[/quote]

** I have a great admiration for this, would that I were so sure of myself.**

Maybe, therein lies the problem. One must have complete faith in themselves in order to make things happen in a positive way. Will you win them all . . . No, but that faith is what keeps the spirit alive. One must keep doing the 'right things' and goals will be achieved. Persistence is omnipotent!!

'Good and bad'exists everywhere. We all tend to 'see' what we look for . . . positive or negative. It is what the person looks for that determines what they see.

As for 'rose-colored glasses' . . . . . we are talking here of people's aspirations and dreams. Those who insist on 'stepping' on them with THEIR negative opinions is despicable in my opinion. Why do they feel it necessary to attempt to drag others down to their level?

Who gives them that authority?

I, and others, with the same confidence and positivity refuse to play that silly game.

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

It is one of your more endearing qualities you two, you don't pull any punches and you don't so much tackle a France-related issue/problem as jump on it from a great high and wrestle it to the ground.      On this intereting one, are you specifically referring to the S.A.S brigade (Smug And Sanctimonious) or the B.I.B one ? (Blissfully Ignorant Bless them) Brigade ? or even, although extremely rare on these debating shores, the S.A.S.A.B.I.B (combination of the 2) ? As I see it, there's a huge difference betweeen these species.

I have to spend an inordinate amount of time in my professional life at work being PC -have no choice(BTW, it is NOT 'politiquement CORRECT', that's an anglicism -and we don't want that, do we ?-, but 'Politiquement Convenable'), so when I express my viewpoints and opinions on a Forum I have to tell it as it is.

Those 'certain' posters are still around though, and active at that, happily portraying France as a giant theme park with a cornucopian larder for an annex next door, and, Grands Dieux, nowt wrong with it either. Not only do they refuse to see that France is not a paradise but they also feel the urge to rubbish the UK in the process ! I dread to think what sort of life they had back in the UK to feel so resentful towards their own country. I suppose I can't 'name and shame' anyone, but if you look at the Home Alone thread, you'll have a good illustration of what I'm on about. The thing that, I suppose, amuses me the most with some of them is not so much their spectacular ignorance often combined with a prodigious arrogance (it's amusing, certes, mais limited in its reaches) but the fact that they simply refuse to listen to locals/natives/French people when I mention, say, social ills in France or urban France, whatever, the subtext in their replies is that I, Vraititi, should really stop 'parler par mon popotin'. I would not mind a debate, after all, they might well prove me wrong on some points, but no, they conveniently eschew the discussion.

Yes, life as a footlose idler in the peaceful French countryside is probably wonderful, fulfilling, and whathaveyou, but, please you aforementioned lot, try to get a feel for the other France, the other aspects of this country, do not ignore France as a country, do not suppress it, do not blank out the few French people who might want to tell you about it, they might well want to help you you know !

[Teamedup]

Now who is the you two, Vraititi? Wrestling something to the ground? That sounds rather saucy to me,  and great fun too .

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

Sorry, I meant you two SB and TU, comme de bien entendu ma chère. Should also read 'jump on it from a great height' of course.

[Alexis]

I think that it has become very quiet on here.  Boring, really.

Do any of you pop over to 'other' sites?  I don't.  The fluffy site which slagged SB off or another one with their heads up their.....oops.  Forgotten what I was going to say there

Bring back i,m here in france.....Not to pick on me.  Obviously

[Russethouse]

Ooooh - Alexis, Give the mods an even break........

[Patf]

Alexis, I agree with you but also sympathise with the mods who have to respond to complaints etc. People are too sensitive sometimes. There were plenty of arguments and fallings-out in the good old days, people leaving in a huff and coming back again. But the numbers were fewer and so fewer "characters." It's a pity all those archives have been lost. It was really lively when the postings were in the old format of jumping in at any stage of the discussion. I think one big change has come about through the introducton of the Earning a Living forum 2 years ago. This must have made a few people think more carefully before coming over without a job and having a family to support. On the other hand, if the people who tell it like it is have won the day, are there now fewer families coming over? I doubt it. Pat.

[Russethouse]

PatF,

A little while ago I mentioned my neighbors parents who think they would like to move to France (solely on the basis of TV progs!) However things have not really progressed as they have been quite unable to sell their house.

Their daughter thinks it may be a little overpriced, but they haven't even had a viewing in months....with the market slow its bound to eventually have a knock on effect.

[SaligoBay]

'Good and bad'exists everywhere. We all tend to 'see' what we look for . . . positive or negative. It is what the person looks for that determines what they see.

As for 'rose-colored glasses' . . . . . we are talking here of people's aspirations and dreams. Those who insist on 'stepping' on them with THEIR negative opinions is despicable in my opinion. Why do they feel it necessary to attempt to drag others down to their level?
Who gives them that authority?

No, you misunderstand!   It's nothing to do with with opinions, it's to do with real life.  Someone living the rural idyll, able to live without working, who doesn't speak French so doesn't pick up on what's happening in the village or in the news, has a different view of France from those who have to work, commute, and perhaps live in or near a built-up area.

And it's also not fair for the former to dismiss the real-life experiences of the latter as "negative".   I happen to LIKE real people and real life, and if that means facing up to some of the less pleasant aspects of life in France (domestic violence, suicide, poverty, and so on), then I do it.  To pretend they don't exist, just so as not to upset comfortable expats, is insulting to the real-life, French people who have to live that reality.

And THAT's what I didn't like in the old days of the forum, to by told that MY experience, and that of millions of French people, wasn't valid!

Anyway, the thread wasn't meant to be THAT serious.     

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

By the sound of it, this forum's good old days were halcyon days with right old debates, wish I'd been there ! So, what's changed since then you'd say ? Yes, I totally agree with you, I find it hard to understand how can people live in France without wanting to hear a wide range of opinions, warts and all

[bixy]

Vraititi, I love your categories of SAS and BIB. I know both types. SAS I would characterise as "we're sooooo integrated" and BIB as "learn French, why?"

Patrick

[Iceni]

I almost gave up on this site when those who were 'wannabies' kept posting stuff like 'list the 10 most obscure things you thought about France before you had your morning shower'.

Reality is far more fun. Yes we change as us once newbies hit the reality wall and learn to live in the system. I still feel a guest in another country BUT a more realistic guest.

At least the 'sweetness and light' brigade now have their own home and we can take really horribly true advice from those that have been here longer than us. As many of us live in different parts of France, so we come from different parts of the UK and quite often to me we seem to be talking about 4 quite different countries. I had a conversation about Chile last night and as someone who lived there for some time opened the eyes of someone else who believed everything they had read in the papers - so I know you can only make your decisions from reality and not what you read or want to be true.

[timc17]

As a relative newcomer to the forum and soon to be french resident i would prefer posters to 'tell it like it is' rather than wax lyrical about lazy days sitting by the pool sipping a chardonnay.

My only gripe is when the threads get personal and i think that's why the forum is a bit quiet now. Members like myself view this forum as an information goldmine as until we experience the problems/delights for ourselves the advice etc offered by the 'golden oldies' is all we've got to go on.

 

tim 

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

Bixi, I'm interested in yr reply (for my sins, I love cross-european socio-psycho-pernod-logy). Living in the UK, I have obviously no contact with ex-pat Brits so I'm going to ask you a few Q's if you don't mind. (Please note that I am not passing any judgement on any of the categories mentioned below. I am merely trying to get as accurate a picture as possible of recent expat developments and British immigration in France with regards to the points mentioned below).

1) Have you noticed many/a strong proportion of BIB's around you ? Newcomers mainly ? What about SAS's, are they young-ish/middle-aged ? Do you find them right across the class spectrum ?

2) What do they say about the French ?

3) The younger expat Brits, particularly the BIB's, those who might well have to work in France and fend for themselves for the next 2 decades or so, doesn't it bother them a bit that they can't speak a word of French ? Aren't they worried at all ?

4) I hear and read that practically every month 1000's of ill-prepared Brits move across to France (mostly in Cheapland France -Brittany, Limousin, Indre, etc.), many with non-transferrable skills, many with no French and hardly any savings, on a wing and a prayer kind of thing. Is this, IYO, a true reflection of the (hidden) reality in France ?

5) In yr experience, are only a few/not many/many younger expat Brits intent on relying on the French benefits system (that they don't know but have been told it was generous, so long as you have kids and can claim job seekers' allowance), at least for a short while ?

6) The 'integrated' SAS's, do they appear to you as not integrated at all/mildly integrated/genuinely really into it/too integrated to be genuine ?

I''d have lots more Q's but I'm probably already boring you into a coma with my cheap sociothingy so I'll stop here. Mille thanks for replying.

 

[SaligoBay]

It's me again!   At a loose end, alone, too hot to sew, too tired to read Kafka or even my dear Barjavel, boy is in bed, husband is off to the urgences with his 19-year-old niece.    He phoned after they'd been there for an hour, to say that it would probably be another couple of hours wait, because there's only one doctor on, and he was off to an emergency in the next hospital along (possibly the bad car crash that they saw on their way there).

How familiar is this to anyone who reads my posts?      I could cry, my heart just sinks every time the prospect of contact with hospitals here rises before me.    It's always the same, hours and hours and hours, usually with someone overworked and very grumpy at the end of it!   In my stupidly optimistic way, I always think "it'll be fine this time, 10 minutes and we'll be out", but no.  You'd think I'd know better by now! 

Okay, that's that off my chest!    

Back to where you were, everyone - integration, wasn't it?   Good luck to you all, I'm off to have a beer in the pool! 

[Mistral]

SB, out of interest, are there any members of your family (and it's starting to sound like a family à la mode de Bretagne) who haven't spent hours at your local urgences?

Especially when a french person or several tell them how things are, as many french people have a real talent for this. A slight air of being condescending and obnoxious and most certainly 'right' and sometimes closing with 'pourtant c'est vrai' at which point 'fin' should magically appear, as those words signify the end of not only their closing argument, but that particular discussion.

TU, beautifully put.

[Mysfloss]

what does "à la mode de bretagne" mean,something I've missed .

[Mistral]

[quote]what does "à la mode de bretagne" mean,something I've missed .[/quote]

Sorry

The proper term is "cousin à la mode de Bretagne" and means very extended family. In Brittany everybody is a "cousin" even if the family link is that their great-great grandmother was the second cousin to your great-great grandfather's  second wife. I thought it was just one of those old-fashioned linguistic terms (like the French learing "raining cats and dogs) and then I became part of a Breton family....

[letrangere]

I was thinking only recently how the atmosphere on this Forum has changed, it must be coincidental but I feel it started around the time the "new look" was introduced last summer.   And what also surprises me is that given there are now, what, 5000+ members, it's still by and large the same relatively small group of albeit lovely people posting.   In the old days people used to have more passion for the subjects we were discussing - they were more spirited - irrespective of whether it was the price of oven ready chickens or wearing the veil in French schools.  (Remember that one?  My small contribution urging respect towards Muslims resulted in the receipt of some utterly abhorent hate mail.)  That particular thread wasn't perhaps our finest hour but thought provoking, stimulating and often quite angry arguments on the subject of French life and society did develop, the likes of which we haven't seen in months. 

Re the rose tinted glasses brigade, bearing in mind the average length of stay for new arrivals is estimated to be 18 months/two years, and probably a lot less for some of the poor unfortunates who showed up here with their daft questions, there's a very good chance many of those who made the move at the peak of the craze are on their way back if not home already.   I often wonder what happened to the couple who wanted to move to France but had never been abroad before...

M

[Christine Animal]

"cousin à la mode de Bretagne"

And it is also wise to always be wary about talking to someone in a French village or small town about someone else of the same village as they are often related (have a "cousin Breton").

Christine

[Teamedup]

MWJ, I don't think the craze is over yet. I have spent quite a bit of time back in the UK over the last 8 months and people still are saying that either people they know or colleagues or they themselves are moving to France or planning to do so.