London attacks

[Jill<br><br>Jill (99)]

[quote]I will apologise first to all believers of any creed whatsoever. What follows is my own opinion only and invoke that of noone else.I was brought up as a catholic but I grew up and after some thinking/...[/quote]

missyesbut - I agree entirely with what you said.

I'm very thankful that I wasn't watching television or listening to the radio yesterday morning. As it was, I received a phone call from my 17 year old daughter between 11 and 12 to say they were on their way out of the suburbs of London. They, being her 6th form English trip. They had been staying in a Queen Mary's hall of residence overnight having been to the Globe on Wednesday evening. They had been on their way to be dropped off near Covent Garden for shopping just after 9 when they were caught in the traffic jam and saw many ambulances. At first they were told it was an electricity surge. Then, one student received a phone call from a parent to see if she was OK and informed one of the teachers. It took a few phone calls from other worried parents plus listening to the radio for the teachers to realise they were better to leave London. When my daughter phoned me, she assumed I knew. They were all quite scared having heard that there were rumours that there were more bombs on buses and of course they passed many buses. It wasn't until she arrived home that evening that I realised that she might have been very close to what was happening.

I had been thinking of making a theatre trip to London in August, but - although many will think me stupid - I think I'll just stick to local theatres for the time being.

I do agree to some extent with what George Galloway has said, but I've heard today he was a friend of Saddam, which is extremely worrying. I do think we need to withdraw our support from the United States though, in order to become more safe. They are not benefiting the World when you listen to the results of the G8.

[letrangere]

Since the 90's bus and Métro bombings at Saint-Mich' (was over in Paris when it happened), I very rarely use the public transport.

We were central Paris residents at the time and this series of attacks over several months scared me witless.  We felt the rumble of the Saint Michel bombing across town in the 8eme but a good friend living much closer (nr Odeon) lost her kitchen windows.  Like Vraititi, I walked everywhere for a couple of years afterwards, nothing would have got me on the Metro or RER.  Which is why I have such enormous admiration for Londoners who were back on the Tube or buses on Friday morning.  I guess it's like falling off a horse or bike, the only way to conquer the fear is get straight back on.  And if you do have the courage, it does prove to these barbarians that they can't destroy our normal way of life. 

But for those of us living in London in the 70s, wasn't this always our greatest fear when the IRA were active?  I lost count of the number of times my local tube station was closed due to a "bomb scare" and was evacuated several times from tube trains due to suspicious parcels being spotted.

Am currently in the Middle East where, if it's any consolation, the media (both English language and Arabic) is unanimous in its condemnation of these attacks.  It probably went unnoticed in Europe (quite understandably) but the Egyptian Ambassador to Baghdad was murdered by his captors on Thursday too.

M

 

 

[Miki]

Jill said ".....I do agree to some extent with what George Galloway has said, but I've heard today he was a friend of Saddam"

I am not trying to be funny but are you seriously saying you have had no idea about George Galloway and all the furore over his meetings with Hussein ? They were given large preference and were televised as well as being prominently in the press. The Americans even questioned him in the States due in part to his involvement with his charity in Iraq(It was live on TV and I personally thought George was excellent in his response but the whole issue of why he was there is too long to go in to now and too involved)

I am shocked and surprised you have totally missed the George Galloway,Saddam Hussein-Iraq saga. The papers had been full of it for years leading up to and including the war. I am not have a dig but I am genuinely mystified that anyone would not know about it all.

By the way, I would not go so far to say they were "friends" as such.

[Dick Smith]

A couple of points in reply to Jill - and though I disagree with Miki about George Galloway I find it incredible that anyone in the English-speaking world didn't pick up on the accusations about him and Saddam.

I'm very glad your daughter is safe, but don't forget how many millions of people were as close (or even closer) to the events on Thursday.

First of all the invasion of Iraq and the removal of the Taleban happened AFTER the September 11th attack on New York. They are not, therefore, causally connected. The Al Qaeda organisation exists to eradicate democracy from the world - that is why the attacks took place.

Secondly - you don't get rid of terrorists by giving in to their demands. They simply ramp up their demands in front of the next attack. You have to absorb the attacks, defeat them wherever you can and undermine their support base. The best way to do that at the moment is to support those who want freedom and democracy to be established throughout the Muslim world. What do you expect a bully to do when you show him you are afraid and weak?

As you know I was in London on Thursday and Friday. No-one there was suggesting giving in to these murderous *******s, Jill, and most people would get pretty cross with you for suggesting it.

I hope its safe where you are.

[Christine Animal]

"It probably went unnoticed in Europe (quite understandably) but the Egyptian Ambassador to Baghdad was murdered by his captors on Thursday too."

Nice to hear from you MWJ.  Yes, I saw that about the Ambassador on the French news Thursday night.

You mentioned the windows.  During the guerre d'Algérie, all the windows were broken where my parents in law lived, except theirs, she was such a "maniac" for cleaning, she had all the windows open.

[Sprogster]

Withdrawing from Iraq, desirable or otherwise, would not stop the bombings in London or elsewhere.

Look at Spain's experience. Despite a change in the Spanish government and their withdrawal from Iraq following the Madrid train bombs. Al Queda linked terrorists continue to actively target Spain, with subsequent attempted attacks by Al Queda in Spain, still being thwarted.

Withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan is only one small part of the demands, of this relatively small group of extreme fundamentalists, who are totally unrepresentative of the Muslim community as a whole. Their main agenda is to destroy us so called infidels and western values, then impose their extremist views on our society.

These extremists have been indoctrinated with an abject hatred for everything the free world stands for, with its perceived immoral values, and the fact we are non believers (infidels).

Who says? Just have a look at their Websites and listen to what they say. 

[RayB]

[quote]Withdrawing from Iraq, desirable or otherwise, would not stop the bombings in London or elsewhere. Look at Spain's experience. Despite a change in the Spanish government and their withdrawal from Ira...[/quote]

**Who says? Just have a look at their Websites and listen to what they say. **

May I remind everyone that 'DEATH TO THE INFIDELS!!' is not a new warcry.

[richandkath]

I work in London and was in office on Thursday (stones throw from Liverpool st) when this occurred.

Luckily I only had the inconvenience of disrupted journey home but my heart goes out to all who have lost loved ones or suffered injury.

I think we all owe a huge debt of thanks to the emergency services who were really selfless and beyond praise.

Anyway... the reason I post is to agree with all of Bill's comments.

You cannot give in to terrorists and this problem was with us long before Afghanistan and Iraq were invaded.

America is a convenient target for all the world's ills but lets remind ourselves WHO it was who insisted on getting involved to try and protect Muslims in the former Yugoslavia. I didnt see any of the European nations (including GB) leading the charge.

As Dick says give them something and they will want more (plus you have given them encouragment).

Plus what they want to achieve goes far beyond Westerners out of holy places in Middle East and the destruction of Israel.. what they want we cannot give them.

[RayB]

[quote]I work in London and was in office on Thursday (stones throw from Liverpool st) when this occurred.Luckily I only had the inconvenience of disrupted journey home but my heart goes out to all who have ...[/quote]

**Plus what they want to achieve goes far beyond Westerners out of holy places in Middle East and the destruction of Israel.. what they want we cannot give them.**

We in the coalition have over 100,000 people in Iraq at the moment who would rather be anywhere else in the world but there. I would too. BUT, they are aware that one major answer to the extremists' elimination is 'freedom from oppression'.

I saw several interviews of Iraqis today who were on camera wanting the 'occupiers' to leave. The mere fact that they could say this on camera showing their face and giving their opinion and still hope to see the sun rise tomorrow is proof that what we are trying to accomplish IS working.

They, and those among us, who are blinded by hatred cannot seem to understand. I pity them but have no sympathy for them. Hatred is cancerous and will consume them sooner rather than later.

We in the free world have the privelige of voting . . . I did and I hope they did. I have won some and lost some. At least I had the grace to accept the majority's choice and wait for my turn again. That is what freedom is all about and what we offer to the world. We will prevail!

[Patf]

I've been avoiding using the London underground whenever possible since the fire at King's Cross. People who used it yesterday were very brave, but that is the attitude we should all try to develop. I suppose we should get used to checking around for suspicious packages or people and there should be some written instructions how to do this and what to do if you see something suspicious. There must have been people around when the terrorists deposited the bombs. Pat.

[Dick Smith]

Pat - there is such a job of education to do.

A few weeks ago I was on a packed train when it became obvious to a young man (who I think was a Muslim) and I that a bag at our feet had no obvious owner. We called up and down the carriage and no-one claimed it (we called five or six times). At the next station he got off to find a railway employee and I called again to see if it was anyone's bag. Just as the railway guy got on the train a woman nearby said (and I don't exaggerate) "s'mine". When I asked her why she hadn't answered earlier she just shrugged her shoulders. When I asked if she had read or heard the messages about unattended bags she said she couldn't get it on the luggage rack and then stared out of the window...

I wonder if, when she heard about the events of Thursday, or the events in Birmingham tonight she had a twinge of conscience.

Nah, no chance.

On Friday a colleague was coming into London from Derby and someone left a package on a seat and went to the buffet car. Apparently he was not best pleased to be called for on the Tannoy.

[Jill<br><br>Jill (99)]

Reply to Miki and Dick.

No, Miki, I hadn't seen any reference to Saddam and Galloway, but I don't have time to read newspapers - I just see some television news when having breakfast and occasionally see Newsnight or Question time if I'm not still working when they are on. Or I hear radio news depending on what time I'm travelling.

Also, Dick - I wasn't suggesting we should come out of Iraq because of the attack, but that we should never have gone in in the first place.

[Dick Smith]

Jill - what you said was that we must withdraw our support from the USA in order to remain safe. That sounds a lot like giving in to terrorists to me...

[Miki]

Jill,

I know what you do with your time is certainly not up for debate, by me or anyone else for that matter but you are certainly the first person I have ever heard of that does not have time to sit and read a paper,(if they want to do so that is !and I guess others will now say they do not but I can then then add them to the list as well !) Dare I say, that for your own health and state of mind, you must find time for yourself. I am not worried that you do not read the papers or even see the news that often but with that in mind though, I wonder where one can get serious observations about anything much at all really ?

Question time, simply a propaganda vehicule for all parties to spout their "wares". Now there's thought, stop watching that and read a quality paper, far more sense altogether

[RayB]

[quote]Jill, I know what you do with your time is certainly not up for debate, by me or anyone else for that matter but you are certainly the first person I have ever heard of that does not have time to sit ...[/quote]

**does not have time to sit and read a paper**

Agreed, there must certainly be time in one's day. I never have done so, however. Generally, by the time it gets into print on paper, it is history and the story has moved on. Sunday papers have value in that they go into more depth. My wife reads the Sunday Times cover-to-cover when she can get one here.

What I do do every morning and throughout the day is look in on the websites for BBC, NBC, CNN, FOX, DRUDGE REPORT, ROCKY MOUNTAIN NEWS (Denver) and get a daily e-mail summary from the New York Times. All of these also lead you to links from the left, right and center. I know which is which and take each with a grain of salt.

When it comes to statements and speeches, I don't read the comments, I read the transcripts and make up my own mind about what was said and meant.

When it comes to stories about tragedies such as what happened in London last week, I take note of immediate reports and wait two days to read what REALLY happened. In between all one gets is speculation from 'Experts' and repetition. The TV/Net have 24 hours to fill and papers have pages to fill.

I feel that I keep well-informed and see all facets of any story. It works for me.

[Iceni]

"When it comes to stories about tragedies such as what happened in London last week, I take note of immediate reports and wait two days to read what REALLY happened. "

I seem to be missing yr point - bombs exploded, people were killed/injured, chaos ensued - what else is there ? It is unlikely the full details of who and why will ever be discovered and if so will not be published anyway.

Having lived in and around Colchester and worked in London while the IRA was in full flow in the 90s the small possibility of being killed or injured by a bomb was a subject we did not discuss. Even when the lorry exploded in Bishopsgate while I was at work just off Middlesex St there was never any hint that I would not carry on with my life as before. Brave ? Never. Stupid ? Probably. But moving house and job was not a serious option.

Though I am delighted to now live in a remote part of France. 

John

not

[Fantine<br><br><br><br>Susie]

RayB said "When it comes to stories about tragedies such as what happened in London last week, I take note of immediate reports and wait two days to read what REALLY happened. "

Iceni said "I seem to be missing yr point - bombs exploded, people were killed/injured, chaos ensued - what else is there ?"

Ray's point is, iceni, that you get initial reports of 7 bombs when infact there were four. While watching live news programmes, say BBC News24 or Sky News for example, you get repetition after repetition of the same thing with all sorts of people dragged out for their opinion. Looking at the story a few days later, you do get the facts and not unconfirmed reports.

[Teamedup]

A couple or so years ago I had a barny with our local postmistress and she told me that I was supposed to listen to or read the news.

No I'm not. I don't have to and neither does anyone else.

 

My father in law watches the news and reads the paper every day. You really wouldn't want to see his totally deformed views of the any events. And he believes every word in the paper he reads and will quote it like gospel.

 

In general I do keep up with events, but if I'm not of a mind to. That is a personal choice, like everyone else's.

[Miki]

I agree but my point was that Jill said she did not have the time, not that I or anyone has any right to tell Jill she has to read, I was simply surprised that she (or anyone else) did not actually have the time, even if they wished to read a newspaper.

Or perhaps, as they used to say "No F.T no comment"

[Dick Smith]

Fantine - anyone of any intelligence knows that instant reporting is inaccurate as real information is filtered from the mass, but that doesn't make it untrue, does it? Ask any historian which is a better source, the primary or the secondary, and they'll say the primary.

When bombs were going off in London I needed to know what the initial reports were saying, so that I could make decisions sensibly. How could I have waited before doing that?

As for watching/reading/listening to the news - how can anyone be so insular as to not do it?

[Deimos]

To my mind there are no rights and wrongs with regards to keeping up-to-date with the news. There is nothing insular about not keeping up-to-date with UK events. One problem with news reports these days is that stories come and go very quickly. Personally I try to keep up with what is going on in the UK but occasionally do miss the news for a day or two (or three). These “missed periods” can mean that complete stories/events have passed me by. Also, I might miss the conclusions to a story that had started but was ongoing.

It depends on one’s lifestyle and preferences. For example, I live in France but tend to keep up mainly with the UK news (rather than the French). I cannot get UK newspapers conveniently so I use TV and internet. My lifestyle is “irregular” so spending set times of day doing set things or watching set TV programs does not work for me. I am sure that others have similar issues.

However, back on the topic of this thread, I found the Guardian article on “Who did the bombings and Why” interesting http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1525351,00.html?gusrc=rss. Doesn’t really give any answers but interesting anyway ?

Ian

[RayB]

[quote]RayB said "When it comes to stories about tragedies such as what happened in London last week, I take note of immediate reports and wait two days to read what REALLY happened. "Iceni said "I seem to b...[/quote]

Exactly. Thank you, Fantine.

[Iceni]

Anyone who thinks that they get all the information in the papers or on TV is sadly mislead. Living in Colchester we quickly learnt that 'big bangs' would not be explained, would not get into the paper or on TV. This was done because they did not want to create a climate of panic or fear and if no damage was done to anyone, there was no need to give aid or publicity to those that perpetrated these offences. Unfortunately some were injured - Sargent Mudd being one and still remembered by many for his courage.

How they do it, why they do it, is filling papers, but the truth is that the security forces have to stop 100% of these barbaric attacks - they only have to succeed once. Having seen the effect these types of atrocities have on someone who was not injured but very near a blast makes me realise that the figures they give for dead and injured is nothing compared to those who will suffer long term effects of one sort or another (my heart bleeds for those who do not know what has happened to loved ones - how terrible). When I asked my son if he was going back into London on the 8th, his comment was, 'John did and so will I, not to means they win'.

'We' still live in a fairly free world and if someone does not want to read the papers or keep abreast of the news, well that is their decision and I for one would not have the temerity to comment on this. Freedom to do what we want is what we are fighting for - is it not??????

[Miki]

I have never read so much bilge.

Jill simply says she doesn't find any time to read....that's it. That got questioned by me and not in any way to say "you must read" I was only amazed by the "no time" aspect.

And then to watch everyone bundle in to make some kind of stupid ridicolous comments about whether she should read or not, or in fact if any one should or should not read anything whatsoever, is nothing short of purely pathetic drivel. For my part, and other I would guess, I think that people can read whatever they want (or not)feel like BUT don't for one minute suggest that the "man in the street" has any better way of finding anything out, other than by a good informative newspaper. If they cannot do so then, the TV certainly cannot, well not until sometime later when a "feature" may appear on the screens. Whether any facts get hidden from the public is neither here nor there, one is generally only worried about getting any news or stories as best he can.

For goodness sakes, shall we argue the case of "black and white" next ?

[Dick Smith]

I'm just completely gobsmacked that people are so insular and cut off from events. Or claim to be. I can't imagine being like that.

Now - as you are all so keen to say "That's my opinion and I've got a right to have it" - listen to me say the same.

Has it occurred to any of you that if some of the people on the tube trains had been a bit more on the ball/suspicious minded (and I suspect they were a lot more on the ball than people who never read newspapers or watch the news) they might have had a chance of spotting the packages?

Bilge, Miki? Not many.