Man just been shot on train at Stockwell

[0zeb100ddMMyyyy0Falseen-USTrue]

Hi

Apparently the train driver ran as did most of the passengers. He ran down the tunnel and was pursued by armed plain clothed police who caught him and put a gun to his head. I think if someone in casual clothing carrying a handgun approached me I would run as if the hounds of hell were behind me. Soon the drivers will no longer want to work under this kind of threat.

[steve@sarah]

Have just been listening to "Broardcasting House" on R.4- apparently the man was a Brasillian electrician who had been working in London for over 3 years. He could speak good english.

He came out of the block of flats which had been under servailence, was challenged, ran, and was chased into the station and as we know, shot on the train.

Why did he run- he must have known about the situation in London at the moment. Perhaps he had been involved in petty crime and panicked? 

It is easy to sit safely in front of a computer and critisize, of course we hope the police are supermen and never make mistakes, never get afraid or act in the heat of the moment.

But how would any of us acted, faced with a man running onto a train in these circumstances? Get it wrong and either you've shot an innocent man or you give the terrorist time to set off his bomb.

Not a decision Iwould like to make. 

         

 

 

[Iceni]

But he's Brazilian - what else would he expect from the police ?

John

not

[Ron Avery]

[quote]>>>The innocent have nothing to fear - at least from our forces, everything to fear from their enemies.<<< Tell that to the poor innocent chap with 5 bullets in his head![/quote]

UK police trigger happy??????? ...  NO.........  Was he carrying a table leg or 100 yards away with a  sword?  What has happened to these wonderful stun guns they are supposed to have?

Someone posted that "He came out of the block of flats which had been under surveillance, was challenged, ran, and was chased into the station"  W

Where there were subsequent arrests WAS opposite the station, I lived there myself in the 70's, There is some confusion here in the media, as other reports AND pictures show this guy as coming from a house in Tulse Hill. So if that is correct, and if the police were so intent on stopping a bombing, why did they let him go all the way from Tulse Hill to Stockwell, not exactly round the corner, they must have had at least 15 to 20 minutes to stop him in the street?

Even if he did live In Stockwell Gardens, they had plenty of opportunity to stop him in the flats. Why wait until he gets on a tube train of all things.........

 Why did they assume he spoke ENGLISH!!!  Easy to say he did now, can't exactly ask him can we?

Some London bobbies have the same attitude as some of the English in the shops at Calais......... S-P-E-A-K- S-L-O-W   A-N-D L-O-U-D,  T-H-E-Y A-L-L  U-N-D-E-R-S-T-A-N-D E-N-G-L-I-S-H.

Yes this has been a tragedy and hopefully lessons will be learned, but to all those who think for a minute that the ends justifies the means, think if that had been you son, would you feel the same?

No civilised society can condone a man being to executed for "looking like a terrorist" and living in a house where terrorists were thought to be living......   Oh by the way, how many real terrorists have been arrested at this poor sod's home............  No I didn't think so.

 

[Teamedup]

NOW I really hope that you won't be shouted at by armed plain clothed police in France and they won't shoot if you don't stop, because you didn't in any way imagine that they would be shouting at YOU! Especially if the people shouting look rather like yobs anyway and you think that they are just mouthing off.

 

I got the call, I did, as fortunately the police had missed, these people had managed to escape and phoned me. It went 'HELP, what do we do, some blokes started screaming, then they got guns out and started shooting at us'. If these people had been killed we would never have known what had happened.

 

And if this sort of thing counts, these were very white english men.

[SaligoBay]

I don't think anyone's idiot enough to condone it, Ron.   But in context, he was just another sad casualty of the whole terrorist thing.

Why wait till he went into the underground?   Ermmm, maybe because, from past experience, that's where bombs will be detonated?

Why assume he speaks English??  Why not?  How many languages do you expect the police to be able to converse in?   With all the languages in Britain today, English is still the best bet for communicating with strangers.

I wouldn't be happy if it was my son.  But the people I know who lost their son in the underground bombings aren't jumping for joy either.   He was one of the last remains to be identified, and the funeral isn't till Monday.  

It's ALL awful.  And yes, the police got it dreadfully and sadly wrong.

But can we have some perspective on it, please? 

[Russethouse]

I have just watched Sir Ian Blair on Sky News. The people who shot the guy were Police Officers not SAS or similar. 10% of London policemen are now armed, one of the lowest proportions in the world. He also says the shoot to kill policy had been formulated using the experience of other police forces in cities where there is terrorism.

Ron, as for why the police would pursue some one for a distance, wouldn't that be for gathering more information, hoping they might meet with others involved in the bombings ?

My guess is that at sometime the policemen identified themselves as policemen - why didn't the man stop ? We will never know. Of course its dreadful and I am not in anyway defending it, but this sort of misjudgment is a consequence of being under attack, the blame begins with the terrorists.

I probably am unwise to say this, but I think its pretty easy to make a judgment on this dreadful error from the safety of a keyboard in the French countryside, perhaps you might feel a little differently if your son or daughter was traveling into London daily ?

Just be glad you do not have to make such dreadful decisions and live with the consequences.

[Coco]

Thank God that some men are brave enough to do this terrible and horrible job to at least attempt to control what is now a disastrous situation and one that looks like it can only get worse.

Accidents will happen and we did not start it. We just attempted to train brave men who get paid a simple wage to serve and protect us and ours in the UK.

And who would be prepared to swap places and guarantee that they wouldn't be "trigger happy"?  I know they're professionals, I know they've been highly trained, but, as our wonderful government constantly tell us when they make errors "They are only human".

An ex special forces guy was commentating on a clip of news footage this morning.  It showed two armed officers approaching someone at one of the stations in the last few days.  One was standing some 10 feet away from the guy they had cornered.  The other went right up to him to search him.  There were 3 "ordinary" uniformed policemen, moving passers-by on and away from the scene, they were about 30feet away.  As this guy pointed out, had the person they were searching been a suicide bomber he could have detonated his bomb at any time in that 60 seconds or so from when they said "stop, armed police" to when they realised he had no explosives on him.  For that period of time all 5 of those policemen, as far as they were concerned, were liable to be blown to kingdom come at any time.  They're not trigger happy, they're very brave men and I'm surprised that more of them don't get jittery.

Perhaps Charles Clarke would like to give up his holiday and let one of them (perhaps the poor guy who now has to live with having killed an innocent man) go in his place.    Nahhh, poor old Charles needs a break, after all, he's only human.... and he's only the Home Secretary, who should be on the ball 24 hours a day during this crisis.  What kind of message does that put out, that he can go on holiday and let others get on with it

[Gary]

There is no such thing as a separate shoot to kill policy, when you shoot a gun at someone you are assuming that he will be killed.The Police are trained to fire at the torso, not because there is a chance that the person will live or just be disabled but because it is more likely that the target will be found,two shots are normally fired in quick succession, a 'Double Tap'.They are also trained in 'head shots' for when an occassion demands it, ie hostages, in extreme situations,and in a situation like this where shots to the body might not be appropriate.Each officer has to make his decision there and then what is required,in an instant. It seems pretty likely now that this has been a terrible tragedy and a mistake by the officers concerned but before anyone whines on about trigger happy cops etc suddenly engaging in a 'shoot to kill' policy for god sake remember the whole picture.This was not a small isolated incident it was a culmination of events over a number of days after a number of ordinary people were blown to bits,followed by an attempt to repeat it.There was intelligence that people from that property were involved and when the unfortunate male left, the officers suspected that he was involved which is why he was followed,when he headed for the tube their fears were hightened,especially because of the clothes that he was wearing, that is why they shouted and challenged him.Not only did he run off,he vaulted the gates and made for a train full of passengers.What else were the officers to think? if they had had any doubts at first then by then they must have been convinced that he was a suicide bomber with nothing to lose who intended to blow himself up in the train.He was shot in the head, not because of any 'shoot to kill' policy but because that officer made an instant decision that that was the best course of action and the hope that the mans death would be instantaneous before he could set off his device,and to ensure that the officers own bullets would not activate the bomb around his body that the officer believed was there.one shot,two shots,five shots,to the head,why the big thing about the number? it was most likely that the officer himself did not know how many he had fired after all that had happened and was happening.Well trained professionals yes, supermen no.They are still caring Police officers and he will suffer for his mistake, quite possible being charged with murder and absolutely certain of being taken off the dept.

[cyclebum]

I posted on the earlier London attacks thread. I suggested then that perhaps some of us were  concluding a little too prematurely that the bombers were, who the government backed mainstream media said they were.

Looking at some of the earlier postings on this topic it could be deduced that as this man was shot in such a manner he must be a bomber. After the the police said HE WAS involved, Now he is not - it's a mistake. Perhaps not. At the risk of hoots of derision and sarcastic postings I believe this man may have been involved in the government bombing agenda but had to be taken out. Dead men don't talk. I find it very hard to believe that highly trained police officers, if that's what they were would kill a man in this manner even if they new he had a bomb strapped to him. 

Ok. You can all start taking the mick now. But before you do consider how news papers and TV are telling us who's behind all this. The police are saying the same thing and positively identify a shooting victim AFTER he is killed, then, strangely there is no connection, so all questions surrounding who he is are not asked. He's just an 'ordinary guy'. If there is no connection then the only question is what to do with the police officers. They just get moved. In this case the public led by the media will conclude that under the circumstances this sort of thing will happen so that's ok.

Right now you can take the mick.

[Quillan]

"he will suffer for his mistake, quite possible being charged with murder and absolutely certain of being taken off the dept."

Yep and yet the people in the UK who brainwash the youngsters in to going to the other side of the world to be trained as terrorists and suicide bombers walk the streets free and unhindered in the UK, where is the logic.

I feel sorry for the person that shot him. Not only does he know he shot the wrong man so he has that to live with that but then he has probably been put on 'gardening leave' and he and his family are probably worried sick that he will be prosecuted.

I also sympathise with the family of the person who was shot but then we don't know why he ran, perhaps he was a drug dealer or something, you never know.

[Gary]

No reason why you should be derided cyclebum.You are wrong though thinking the Police officers would not kill him in such a way even if they thought he was carrying a bomb because thats exactly why they did kill him in that way, they really didn't have any choice.His actions and manner of dress plus the address that he came from had convinced them,albeit wrongly,that he was a suicide bomber intent on blowing himself up on the train. 

[Deimos]

From today’s Guardian “Armed officers are instructed to shoot at the head, not the chest, when facing a suspected suicide bomber, to disable them faster. The change follows advice from the Israeli police”.

Triggers can work both ways. A trigger can be set to go off when pressure is released rather than applied so killing somebody may in itself just cause any bombs to go off rather than prevent it (simple spring).

I can appreciate how difficult it is for the police officers yet, this type of thing just helps the terrorists achieve their aims. An innocent person has been killed in cold blood. Whilst the police force clearly have different motives, in both this and the terrorist bombings the result is the same – innocent people die.

The world has to address this madness and in my own opinion the west’s attitude to non-western cultures and the developing world just encourages these things. Experts have commented about how the US/UK/etc. invasion of Iraq has made it much easier for the terrorist groups to recruit – are we reaping the results of our own actions ?

Ian

[Quillan]

"this type of thing just helps the terrorists achieve their aims. An innocent person has been killed in cold blood."

Yes but it can also be turned around. People from the asian/muslim community will be more aware that it is them that could be shot at for doing nothing wrong. All the more reason form them to route out the bad, expose it and get ride of it then you all can sleep safer in your beds and travel safer, thats people of all ethnic backgounds of course.

[Deimos]

[quote]"this type of thing just helps the terrorists achieve their aims. An innocent person has been killed in cold blood." Yes but it can also be turned around. People from the asian/muslim community will ...[/quote]

I don’t know how well that will work as an indirect inducement.

From one of today’s papers: The Muslim Council of Great Britain warned last night that the 'terrible, tragic mistake' could have serious consequences. 'We got lots of hostile emails saying: "How dare you criticise the police?" - and now we hear that he is innocent,' said media secretary Inayat Bunglawala.

'We of course understand the police are under a great deal of pressure and it's a race against time to capture these four suspected bombers. But it is absolutely vital that their rules of engagement are very, very stringent and that this terrible mistake does not occur again.'

He said the police needed to encourage public confidence and co-operation from Muslims and others. 'For that co-operation to occur, the police also need to be seen to be making every possible endeavour to ensure they are going after the right people.'

Ian

[Renaud]

On an earlier posting on this topic I quoted Col Tim Collins from memory, what he actually said was:

"Frankly in the modern army, you take risks alone. You take them in the full knowledge that the outcome may be examined long after the event in the comfort of an office in the UK by men who have never experienced combat and who are not on your side."

Same seems to apply to armed police.

[Quillan]

"He said the police needed to encourage public confidence and co-operation from Muslims and others. 'For that co-operation to occur, the police also need to be seen to be making every possible endeavour to ensure they are going after the right people.'"

Exactly my point. Some members of the Muslim community somewhere must be harbouring these people. If they (the Muslim community) hand them (and any other Muslim terrorists) over no other people are going to be accidently shot, there will be no more bombs in the immediate future and you all can sleep at night.

[cyclebum]

Thanks Gary for the intelligent responce to my posting. I agree with you sort of because there is perhaps a good chance I am wrong in my thoughts. Yes I reckon if I was in a position of protecting public life I may well put 5 bullets at point blank range into a guys head as he lay prostrate on the ground. At the same time I may well do the same if I were under instruction that this person must not be allowed to reach a police questioning room at all costs.

I don't believe the police are trained in the same manner as say the S.A.S. Unless this was an S.A.S operation.

There is lots of stuff happening out there that we are not privvy to. Governments will do anything, assasinate anyone to achieve their gaols. As they say, 'don't believe everything you see or read in the media.'

[Iceni]

If I had been highly trained to save life

If I had been told the typical description of a suspect who had a suicide bomb

If I had seen a man run out of a building which was under survailance for harbouring suicide bombers

If that man did not stop when requested but ran from me

If that man fell to the floor

If I had milliseconds to either kill him or allow him to set off a bomb that he was thought to be carrying

I KNOW what I would have done.

If this policeman is removed from duty we show that we are going to go after these people with one arm tied behind our backs.

Lets wait until all the info comes out but lets also remember that murders who want to blow up Londoners and perhaps those in other cities in the UK are still out there, still planning murder - innocent people are going to get hurt on both sides - it just seems to me that more fuss is being made over this one case than those still in a tunnel waiting to be identified.

Support our security services or the world will degenerate into a far worse place - no one is perfect and imagine how you would feel if you left home and family each day knowing you might be shot and might not return - but perhaps most of us simply could not do the job.

As that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

[Coco]

Lets wait until all the info comes out but lets also remember that murders who want to blow up Londoners and perhaps those in other cities in the UK are still out there, still planning murder - innocent people are going to get hurt on both sides - it just seems to me that more fuss is being made over this one case than those still in a tunnel waiting to be identified.

Support our security services or the world will degenerate into a far worse place - no one is perfect and imagine how you would feel if you left home and family each day knowing you might be shot and might not return - but perhaps most of us simply could not do the job.

All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

Wise words Di

[Ciel Bleu]

On the news in the UK a couple of hours ago, they have said that the police very much regret the shooting of the Brazilian, his family are sent deepest apologies - he was clearly very unfortunate.

Having said this, it was also very clearly announced that the present police/ SAS policy of shooting suspected terrorists dead will continue - nothing has changed since the incident at Stockwell. It is obvious that the terrorists will be watching the news and the government/police want them to know that they are 'on their case'!

I personally think that it's got to be the only route for the police to take - if they turn all 'nandy-pandy' and soft now goodness knows what might happen. Fire has to be fought with fire - unfortunately, at the moment.

 

[0zeb100ddMMyyyy0Falseen-USTrue]

Hi

Could someone out there tell me what on earth this thread is doing on a French forum. It has nothing to do with France at all.

[Motorhead]

Coco, it's going to take at least 30 years for the full story to come out. That's the general rule. It gives the folk like Clarke and the 2 Blairs time to die off in a nice comfy, natural death before any recriminations.

Zeb100, We often talk here about subjects that are of concern to British people who live in France and at least one person has stated that this nasty business reinforced their decision to move here.

[Davies]

I do feel that the police officer who shot the the young Brazilian acted in good faith. It may even turn out that he wasn't the decision maker. It is important, though, that the incident is thoroughly investigated and if it does turn out that anywhere down the chain there was fatal incompetence or negligence  (it happens!)  then blame should be apportioned- if only to avoid repetitions. A police officer acting as instructed and trained should have no fear of the due legal process.

   The are a number of things I am uneasy about, one being the assumption that the victim was somehow responsible for his death in running from a police challenge. Police on surveillance in Brixton will look more like criminals than most person's vision of a plain clothes detective. Of course we will never know but I am willing to believe that he had no idea that they were police.

   I don't feel that Sir Ian Blair is helping the situation. His apology to the bereaved family as televised was a qualified one, it's quite true that it happened as a result of the current terrorist threat; but to the family, it should have been an absolute apology or nothing.

   He is also making the point that 'what if it had been a real suicide bomber and the police had failed to act?' Fair point and true, but it's coming over as spin - It's,  in my opinion, equally valid to say that 'what if it had been a real suicide bomber who had been challenged in the ticket area (as has been claimed) but the armed police challenge had been ineffectual enough to allow the bomber to get down an escalator and onto a train full of people before being put in a state where he could no longer detonate a bomb?' 

   Finally, If the armed police in London want people to remain convinced of their maturity (an important quality in their line of work) , let's hope that this time they won't try to influence the process of law that they have sworn to uphold by threatening to stop bearing arms if the shooter is charged with any offence. 

 Another Dave

[M]

I wish we could get away from the emotive phrase 'shoot to kill'. Police do not 'shoot to kill' - they shoot to stop - that is, to stop someone from doing something which immediately threatens the life of others. Yes, death frequently results from this - 9mm metal-jacket rounds in the chest or head are not conducive to continuing good health - but the intention is not to kill, but to stop.

M.