Land of opportunity

[Viv]

OK so I'm being controversial - But I am not a troll!!!

I know that there are a lot of hurdles to leap to be able to live let alone be able to attain a sucessful business in France BUT don't you think there are a number of opportunities for resourceful and knowledgeable business people?

I will be honest and add that I have never had my own business but I look around and think 'that could be a good idea' and I never ever did that in the UK.

 

[Miki]

To be honest, no I would personally say it is not a land of great opportunity. Far too many rigid rules and regs that positively attempt (and all too often succeed !) to strangle new ideas and businesses at an early stage.

If they were to reduce cotisations, especially in the early days of an enterprise, well maybe but until then.....

[Viv]

I agree whole heartedly with the rules and regs bit Miki, and I haven't either the guts or finance at the moment to attempt anything, it's a pity the set up isn't a little easier in France.  

But when I see how well consumerism has taken a grip in the UK, and how 'Friends' for example can spark an new industry in drinking coffee whilst sat on settees! It does make me wonder if, ( trying to think of ideas here :unsurefor example, being able to sit down for a meal when it suited you rather than the restaurant owner would actually take off over here.

[SaligoBay]

being able to sit down for a meal when it suited you rather than the restaurant owner would actually take off over here.

The problem is that most French people really can't even imagine eating outside those set hours.  It's not really the restaurant owners' faults!   But if you're not hidebound by these things, then yes, it is a pain - when I finish work at 3 I'm just starving, and is there anything at all open on the way home?  Nope, just McDonalds! 

Good luck in your search, let us know what you come up with. 

[Iceni]

It is very hard to start a new business anywhere. In the UK more fail than succeed and just today a world famous sports person went bankrupt for something like £6,000,000. It is even harder here.

You need more than a good idea, you need capital, you need to know how to market, your ideal client, where to find them and how to get them to actually do what you want them to do.

I used to teach Marketing and Internet Marketing and the one subject that most people decided was the biggest waste of time on the course was the 'Business Plan'. Not only did they not want to know how to write one they also did not see any need for one at all.

I wish it was as easy as having a good idea - I would go looking for my brain cell and try to make it have one

As for meal times - watching SKY - has anyone else noticed that adverts for breakfast cereal now have children sitting on the floor, in bed, watching TV whilst eating their strange breakfast before going off to school - all this watched by their loving parents - don't children in the UK even have breakfast sitting at a table and is it the same in France?

[Tourangelle]

[quote]I agree whole heartedly with the rules and regs bit Miki, and I haven't either the guts or finance at the moment to attempt anything, it's a pity the set up isn't a little easier in France. But whe...[/quote]

There are a couple of places where it is possible to eat outside normal times, caféteria Casino for a start, Flunch, and the inevitable Mcdo, and Quick. Also, various "traiteurs" sometimes have seating areas and will heat their food for you and have space where you can eat it. I agree with Saligo Bay, though, perish the thought that we wouldn't eat at 12.00!

[Val_2]

France is stuck in a time-warp where business and daily living is concerned. Nothing changes and new ideas don't seem to be encouraged however good they may be - everyone hangs onto how they have been brought up from the style of meals through to hairstyles. Perhaps my children's generation will bring France into the 21st century with new ideas and systems.

[saddie]

It pains me to quote George W but he apparently asked "do the French have a word for entrepreneur"   perhaps he had a point.

The definition in English dictioneries differs from the French in that the English mentions risk and initiative.

[Viv]

Val you have hit the nail on the head, but how much longer will France be able stay in this time warp?

The UK has undergone vast economic changes in the past 20-30 years and lost many traditional industries, eg where there was coal mining in Sheffield, there is now a huge shopping mall. 

It seems to me that almost every gap in the market has been filled in the UK yet this isn't the case in France , hence the reason I wondered whether there are real opportunities here for entrepreneurs notwithstanding the bureaucratic nightmare that starting a French business entails.

Change may come more slowly to France but I am sure France in 30 years will be much different to that of today.

 

 

[RayB]

[quote]It is very hard to start a new business anywhere. In the UK more fail than succeed and just today a world famous sports person went bankrupt for something like £6,000,000. It is even harder here. You...[/quote]

**I used to teach Marketing and Internet Marketing and the one subject that most people decided was the biggest waste of time on the course was the 'Business Plan'. Not only did they not want to know how to write one they also did not see any need for one at all.**

You are certainly right about that, Di. Did you have the opportunity to get feedback from your students after the course? As a Mgmt Cons for almost 20 years in the UK, my finding was that they paid me lots of money for advice, agreed completely with my recommendations and went right back to their old habits in a very short period of time. In most cases what I suggested wouldn't cost a penny but merely doing things with a different attitude and some procedural changes.

My wife who was a Sr. Proj. Mgmt. Cons. with JPMorgan/Chase would recommend courses for people who worked for her to help them with certain problems. JPM/C has fabulous training in every possible category one could ask for all at the company's expense. Her observations were the same as mine.

As you say, a good business plan is an absolute necessity. The problem it seems is that this is not an easy task. I remember well the first one I ever had to do and didn't have a clue where to start. A format I used fairly successfully was to sit down and make a list of EVERY concievable reason why what I wanted to do would NOT work. Then I would evaluate each line item without considering what a wonderful idea it was and being as objective as possible. No matter how good your planning is , it is still a crapshoot and you had better be ready for the risk and to starve for a while. Your most valuable asset is your faith in yourself.

Now that we are retired, it is fun for us to look back at all the stupid things we did as well as the good ones and how we miss the challenges. Then we look at each other, and say - BS!! - and pour another glass of wine.

[RayB]

[quote]France is stuck in a time-warp where business and daily living is concerned. Nothing changes and new ideas don't seem to be encouraged however good they may be - everyone hangs onto how they have been...[/quote]

**France is stuck in a time-warp where business and daily living is concerned. Nothing changes and new ideas don't seem to be encouraged however good they may be - everyone hangs onto how they have been brought up from the style of meals through to hairstyles.**

If any person goes to any other country and feels that they are going to start a business the way they did it in the 'old country' and show them how it SHOULD be done is doomed from the start. They will find resistance at every corner.

[Miki]

Val is absolutely spot on.

I feel what some people are confusing is, that they are quoting what some little "one man" band needs to do to start a new business venture up. I think many of us here in France, soon notice just how "stale and staid" many of the shops are here for the greater part and have long noticed the fact that in the UK, things can happen very quickly, there are so many entrepreneurs from all over the world who have made a great success out of their ventures, from one man to large companies that have come on to the UK scene and have made it work.

This, as many know is certainly down to the fact that many Brits can adapt and enjoy new style businesses and ventures, simple things such as coffee bars of all kinds that are opening everywhere, high street discount stores, like Argos, the list is so endless BUT seek out similar new ventures here and again, for the greater part, you will have to look extremely hard to find something totally different to the "NF" and Why ? Well most of us know that France is all too often stuck in a time warp and things take an extremely long time to happen here. Whereas the UK can adapt to almost anything that comes from the USA and other countries, France and its people are locked by tradition in their outlook that it may or may not ever happen here.

".....If any person goes to any other country and feels that they are going to start a business the way they did it in the 'old country' and show them how it SHOULD be done is doomed from the start. They will find resistance at every corner.

Ray"

Not sure that is strictly true...IKEA for one has shown France just how to stack em high and sell 'em cheap. Many foreign companies come in to England and show them new ways to shop, merchandise and sell and are accepted but here.....well take a look at how few new ideas are here, not so much to do with resistance at every corner so much, more to do with French traditionalism and cotisation problems.

[Viv]

That was exactly the viewpoint that I was trying to put across and you did it so much better!

I wasn't thinking of taking on French businesses all by myself, I just wondered why there are so many gaps that could even perhaps be filled by companies / franchises already in existance as well as individuals with a proven track records.

I would give anything to have a NEXT within driving distance, and surely those kind of shops can transcend cultural barriers ? I'm also sure French people would use them , I've seen enough of them in McDonalds

[SaligoBay]

I would give anything to have a NEXT within driving distance, and surely those kind of shops can transcend cultural barriers ?

There are lots of international shops about.  Ikea, Gap, Tie Rack, Claire's Accessories, C&A, Body Shop are some that spring to mind.

[letrangere]

 

You need more than a good idea, you need capital, you need to know how to market, your ideal client, where to find them and how to get them to actually do what you want them to do.

My OH runs his own successful business and he spends his evenings talking to his best friend who does the same, and happens to be French.  They argue a lot, as competitive men do, but the one thing they both agree on is that neither would be prepared to invest the time, money and effort required to run a business in France.  They reckon it's like trying to win the 100m sprint with both legs tied together.  Make your money elsewhere, sell up, hide it and live happily in the French countryside on the proceeds is their philosophy.  M

[RayB]

[quote]You need more than a good idea, you need capital, you need to know how to market, your ideal client, where to find them and how to get them to actually do what you want them to do. My OH runs his ow...[/quote]

** Make your money elsewhere, sell up, hide it and live happily in the French countryside on the proceeds is their philosophy**

That's exactly what we have done, M! Personally, I hope our part of France stays just like it is for the rest of my life. We love it just the way it is!

[Laotze]

It puzzles me why people want to leave the UK and live in France .......................and then want to turn France into another version of the UK!!!!! Perhaps the French like things just the way they are???? I do too. I found it hard to get used to the pace of life at first but its far more human and less stressful.

On Saturday we were shopping and only stopped for lunch at 2.30. Flunch was still doing a roaring trade and I certainly prefer THAT concept of fast food to McDs. Buffet salad for entree, grill for main course, lemon meringue for pudding, carafe of rose and coffee - even small bottles of liqueur available! And the concept of a coffee bar - I prefer to stop for my chocolat at a French cafe, sit outside and watch the passing parade on a fine day!

Where I do agree about the lack of opportunity is that a lot of young people seem to settle for such limited horizons. Ok a lot of them are content to plod along but for those with ambition ........... well they go and work in the UK!

France was years ahead with pin numbers on bank cards, Minitel was so way out long before the WWW was even thought of as a concept for every household, France is rolling out ADSL at a fantastic pace and is competitive in a lot of medical and technological fields. Every country has strengths and weaknesses - I have heard Americans bemoaning how things they are used to are not available in the UK and amazed that the Brits have more than 2 weeks vacation. We will soon all be operating like Americans so in the mean time just enjoy the difference!

[vervialle]

I have read all your comments and enjoyed them, I agree with everything said but I hope France does not change to much as thats why I spend all my holidays there to get away from  the pace of life I have to live in England its no fun in the workplace in the U.K. But on the idea of setting up a business in France ,I wish someone would set up a skip business in the limousin so I could empty my barn.There are none round our way and I think it would take off.Incidently a kebab shop has just opened in our small town, I dont know if I am pleased or not!!!!!

[Miki]

".....It puzzles me why people want to leave the UK and live in France .......................and then want to turn France into another version of the UK!!!!! Perhaps the French like things just the way they are???? I do too. I found it hard to get used to the pace of life at first but its far more human and less stressful"

You are reading it wrong. No one, especially me, wants to turn anything in to anything. In not so many words, some of us are simply saying that it takes France a lot longer to change but be sure, it will finally catch up, it always does but at a pace they can handle !

As for stress free, well that depends on what you see as stress free. Many French don’t see it like that at all, it isn’t a hypochondriacs heaven for nothing. I wouldn’t say running a business, based mainly with the French is stress free. I wouldn’t say that some of the young folks from the UK now struggling to find work and not having the disposable income they once had and now struggling to make ends meet meets the criteria they once dreamt about and are now not exactly stress free.

It really does come down to individual circumstances, being retired and pottering around in ones own little world is ideal and for many it makes a fairly stress free life but, there again it surely brings some stress by many retired folks not speaking any, or very little French and so rely on anyone they can find, to help them deal with everyday life here.

No one was saying “coffee bars” and putting it up as how good they are, it was an example of how other countries will more readily accept change, it could just as easily been some other example. Please don’t just grab one simple line to set your own point up against.

Flunch you say, sorry but by the time a hundred smokers have coughed over the salad, cheeses and desserts and others have had a good feel, it sort of lost its shine to us after a few years. I agree it might be better than McDo’s but I don’t think you could put the proverbial fag paper between them ! You may prefer to stop and drink Choco at a pavement café and why not but many people might well like to taste better and more varied coffees, than can be found at many cafes these days in France.

“Where I do agree about the lack of opportunity is that a lot of young people seem to settle for such limited horizons. Ok a lot of them are content to plod along but for those with ambition ........... well they go and work in the UK!”

Yep, absolutely correct for the greater part!

“France was years ahead with pin numbers on bank cards,”

Maybe so, but miles behind in many ways in their banking style, no interest on current accounts and charges for ALL cards for a start and as well up on rip offs as any British bank !

In answer to your first point, no I personally don’t want to change France in to Britain, or Britain in to America, it was simply a discussion on how traditional it is here and how long it takes them to make changes but since we have been here we have seen a mountain of changes, so don't get too used to your stress free life, changes will come, like it or not.

Do you think the modern generation of French like the way it was with their parents ? It is not what the kids tell us, did their parents have all night discos, loud pop concerts, motos, drink, designer shops and fashion shops, McDo's and Le Quick and a hundred and one other things ?

As for their pace of life, I couldn’t keep up with our kids and their mates lifestyles and in our line of work, the pace is pretty damned furious. I have to grin when folks tell me just how easy the pace of life is here ! How does everyone think people earn a living here? Well it's not by strolling around all day then going to the bank each month to draw their money out ! The same stresses and pressures are here that one left behind in the UK, the difference is that for many Brits, they now do nothing or perhaps run gites, which in the end they have to sell on, due to the life it becomes.

Best get the map out for the next unspoiled country for the next generation of Brits to find

[SaligoBay]

why I spend all my holidays there to get away from  the pace of life I have to live in England

But isn't that just the nature of holidays?  I spent 2 weeks in the UK earlier this year, and we had a brilliant time!  The sun shone, people in shops were friendly, there were no traffic jams, miles of countryside to walk in, lots to see, loads of wildlife.   And all just because I didn't have to WORK!!!!  

France is indeed "moving on".   Miki mentioned youngsters.  Birthday parties now are almost all organised affairs - LaserQuest, bowling, go-karting, cinema, McDo for little ones.   Just like Britain, and driven by French consumers!

I would actually like a decent coffee place, sorry to offend anyone, but there you go.  Formica tables in dingy smoke-filled bars just don't do it for me! 

[vervialle]

I suppose where my house is, the only english people I meet are retired despite being in their fifties and in my hamlet there are only two french  people that work the rest are retired.Infact no one really gets up until after 9 0clock.So the pace would be quite slow and as previous post said you do have your holiday head on.Although I work at a university which allows me to spend all of the summer in France and the holiday head goes after a few days with all the jobs to be done, perhaps I only see a certain sort of France.The french students that attend our university in England seem to love England and think we have more oppertunities in the U.K. they all seem to miss their family life though but we see very few french students returning back to their home towns, they have to go where the work is and commuting is not an option with France being so vast.So I suppose there is good and bad things about both countries and perhaps we are lucky to have experienced both.On the subject of coffee, fifteen years ago when I first bought my house in France I could not wait to get to France for a decent coffee and putting up with formica and smoked filled bars was the price you paid.However you can get a decent expresso almost everywhere in th U.K. now so  its not such a novelty.

[Motorhead]

May I make a suggestion for an out of hours eating, low capital, easy startup business that is usually run by immigrants ---- a kebaberie.

A someone who could probably write "The Good Kebab Guide" I reckon it's a goer especially if you could combine the kebabs with pizzas which I have not yet noticed in France. Maybe you could have as a USP "British kebab shop --- pizzas as well" even though British kebab shop pizzas aren't all that good (they buy in the bases rather than make them fresh themselves) but this probably won't be known by the clientele.

My favourite kebab shop is in my local town (not a reason I bought my house but one of those things that tell you've made the right decision) is open from 11 am to 1 am but is sometimes let own by the boulangerie on a Sunday, sells arabic deserts, salades, merguez and couscous as well and is very successful even though he sells no alcohol. It only has about 10 covers with none outside but does a lot of takeaways. Prices I can remember are: sandwich kebab à emporter avec frites 2.80 ( 2 merguez), sandwich kebab (often called a sandwich doner) à emporter 3.5O sans frites/4.OO avec and 6.50 for a an assiete kebab (sur place avec frites only). It is a hangout for the local Tunisians but also has a large French clientele. the French are mainly pensioners who have little money and come at lunchtime and students who have little money study late in in the library then hit the bar for a drink and philosophical discussion then realise they are hungry. The USP of the place are big portions, 4 euros is the starting for a kebab/frites à emporter in the town and all theirs are plus grande which go for up to 6.50 but remember it's a high markup low cost business so larger portions won't cost that much (as found out by McDonalds). Another clever marketing ploy they have is a takeaway window ( it's on the street that' the main bus terminus and people like to stand outside to see their buses coming in) The town has a population of 50,000 and five shops one of which has recently moved to larger, more central premises so I suppose 1:10,000 demographic is at least viable for a town centre location. There was another one but they kept normal resto hours and the kebabs were small and the chips were vile.

I know of 3 such establishments that are French run. One goes around the local markets and faires and makes a USP of the kebabs being 70% turkey and 30% veal and it was very busy even though the chips were mediocre. Another is in an Arab estate in Grasse and was staffed mainly by arabs. The third and perhaps the most interesting is in Millau. Not at all studenty but it is quite a touristy town and to to get the non pensioner or student french French in it has to be in a tourist area in my experience. It is run by a French woman her Spanish mother only helped by their daughter/grandaughter in school holidays. The place is really poky, the cooking area is bigger than the covered eating area but she was constantly adding more outside tables for arriving punters, OK this is seasonal but I've seen awnings that can make outdoors indoors in Monaco and Chantilly.

With an appreciation of the foregoing and ability to speak basic French, make a decent pizza base and some gastronomic kebab research in a variety of places. For someone who can work long hard hours I think it's a definite goer. Low startup costs, minimal cooking skills required (you don't even have to build up a doner skewer, most places buy them in) and France is less encumbered by food hygeine laws than Britain.

But location is location is location. I think you'd have to get 4 out of 5 of the following: lots of students, lots of pensioners, lots of north africans/turks, touristy area (the longer the season the better, close to a transport hub and lots of Brits may help too. On these criteria I would first choose Nice then Paris. Lower cost options would be Grasse or CF

Motorhead, on a diet and dreaming of kebabs.

[SaligoBay]

It really is a very odd thing!  

In the UK, kebabs are regarded as only fit for dogs and drunks.

In France, the country that regards itself as the culinary masters of the universe, kebabs are regarded as a perfectly acceptable means of nourishment.  Not French, but okay.

I've always liked kebabs.  Loads of kebab places in Montpellier, but they suffer from the same thing as French curries, not adventurous enough with strong tastes.   Had a couple of excellent German kebabs a few weeks ago, and the chips were as good as skinny fries can be! 

[Laotze]

[quote]".....It puzzles me why people want to leave the UK and live in France .......................and then want to turn France into another version of the UK!!!!! Perhaps the French like things just the w...[/quote]

Hey Miki - CHILL!

I DID NOT  say Stress free - I said less stressful. I only know our area well - and believe me, compared to what we fled "stress" is something that the folks around here need to look up in the dictionary. And no - my life is not stress free either! I dont know anyone who has a stress FREE life. Just a little point - you dont know enough about me to make any assumptions about how I live, what stresses I have had and do have. Can we just agree on the point that I LIKE France the way it is - and I dont ask you to feel the same? I KNOW it will change and has changed in the 14 years we have owned our house. I just dont see anything admirable about changing things that people from UK, USA, and several other countries  are coming to France to seek because they have lost these things in their own countries.

[Laotze]

Oh and by the way Miki - I came to live in FRANCE not to escape Britain. I have no interest in other countries spoiled or unspoiled except as a holiday destination.