Cost of living in France

[Hillbilly]

Hi

This is my first post as a new member. Please be gentle with me!

Myself and Mrs Hillbilly have toyed with the idea of moving to France for some years, having enjoyed numerous holidays there. Like many others have probably done, the plan is to sell up in the UK and buy cheaper in France, leaving money to invest to produce income and supplement a pension. We are looking for an earlier escape from the rat race than we could afford here and we are seeking a simple lifestyle (grow veggies, keep chickens etc.) The thing that I am uncertain about is how much we would need to live on, allowing for no mortgage or other significant outgoings. I realise that this is a very subjective question, but could anybody advise as to what sort of standard of living an annual income of say 15,000 to 20,000 euros might allow in France?

Any observations would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks

Hillbilly

[SaligoBay]

According to a BBC report which I posted elsewhere today......

The poverty line in France, which varies according to the size of a household, is 1,170 euros (£790) per month for a couple with one child.

But you're really asking how long is a piece of string, as local taxes vary wildly from area to area in France, so you could pay 200 euros a year taxe foncière for a mansion, or 2000 a year for a dog kennel.

Account for taxe foncière (owner tax), taxe d'habitation (occupier tax), tax, heating fuel of choice, electricity, phone, car running, petrol, water, house insurance, car insurance, health insurance, and of course food.  And spare money for Rainy Days, of course, because there will be some!

The general trend is for costs to increase, while your income stays the same.    

[Val_2]

I think you should look along the lines that it is the same as living in the UK but the quality of life is better. Material costs are equal because what you save on certain things like rates here you will spend on using more petrol to drive further to do your shopping etc. You have health care to pay for here,not in the UK and utility bills come every two months here. If you buy an old property there is always maintenance to be done on it and if out in the sticks you will have items like a septic tank to be emptied every so often or even replaced if it does not conform eventually and probably land to be maintained by another person if you get ill or too old to cope with it. If you are going to be living on a UK pension that will be transferred from UK to french bank account each month, never underestimate the problems of rate of exchange - back in 96/97 many pensioners were forced to leave France because the rate fell to 6FF/£1 from 10 in just a few weeks and the pensions were badly affected. You should also weigh up the costs of return to the UK if you family you want to see regularly as that is forever increasing either by plane or ferry. No one should upsticks and move here purely onthe whim it is so much cheaper, there is a lot more to living in France than that and don't forget that you will need to learn french to deal with all the paperwork.

[Alexis]

Well, I'm just back from my hols in the UK and I couldn't believe how much everything has gone up.  Every time I opened my purse it was another £20 gone.

I know that utility bills are a lot dearer too so I would say that it is cheaper to live here now and the difference is widening.

I reckon that if you don't live in an expesive taxe fonciere or habitation area two people could easily manage on 1000€ a month.  Lots of folk here live on less.  No point in living on the border line though.  Life has to be enjoyed.

[Jon 1]

With no mortgage and producing some of your own food, you should expect to have quite a modest lifestyle on 15,000 euros pa, slightly better on 20,000 euros pa.  I find that generally it is a little more expensive now to live in France as it is in the UK.  Car fuel prices are virtually comparable, water is more expensive as is gas and electricity.  The equivalent of council tax is comparable, depending on region.  As has been stated health care is not free, so you have to take account of this.  A TV licence is currently cheaper, as is wine and most other alcoholic beverages.  Eating out at lunch time is cheaper.  Supermarket prices are generally the same, although locally produced fruit and veg can be cheaper in season.  There is no car road tax, and some say car insurance is cheaper but I have not found that.  Telephone costs and internet charges are higher.  I find that tradesmen are more expensive here.  If you like to travel around, and use the autoroutes, you have to factor in the road toll charges, which can be significant.  On 20,000 euros I don't think you would be able to have international holidays, or change your car, or be consumerist in terms of clothes electrical equipment etc.  All in all you would have quite a modest lifestyle and would have to watch your budget.  If the pound was to fall against the euro then your lifestyle would decline in equal % terms, as it would generally with inflation.  Despite being told that inflation is about 2.9% in the UK I don't believe it.  There has also been significant inflation in France in the past two years.  If you are on a fixed income tied into government pegged increases of say 2.9% as at present, you would see your standard of living erode.  I have just returned from a trip to Spain and got the impression that you could live a little more cheaply there.  A large milky coffee was 1.25 euros, here in France it is 2.50euros.  A lunch time meal was generally available for 8.50 euros, here it is about 12 euros.  I hope this helps.

[Lori]

Though I come from America, not the UK - therefore cannot speak on UK charges, but in comparison to the U.S., I have to agree with everything Jon said (only in terms of U.S. to France expenses).

We have found some things cheaper here, but most are by far much more expensive than the U.S.

We too have had the conversation about how much the annual cost to live here is.  As has been noted, there are so many variables.  I can honestly say that, here in the Vaucluse (Provence), a couple, with one car, no mortgage and no children, could survive on 20,000 Euros per year, but they certainly would have to be careful.  The healthcare issue would have to be considered.  Impots, water, electricity, heating fuel, petrol, white goods and food are much more expensive here than the U.S.  That may be irrelevant as you are coming from the UK, but still..  Any type of home renovations can cost very dearly, so choose your home carefully. 

I do not see a couple with an income of 20,000 Euros per year being able to take any sort of International (including EU countries) vacation.  You'd be luck to have a week at a good B&B on that income, but maybe this is unimportant to you.

Of course, this is my own personal opinion and I'm sure others will have some good input to add.

Also, on another note, there was a recent post about unexpected expenses.  They happen every year to all of us and an income of 20,000 would make it difficult to put anything aside for the coming year.

 

[Alexis]

Blimey Jon, your area is a lot more expensive than up here.  We don't pay that for coffee or our lunch.

Saying that, we paid thirty pounds for two pub meals in the UK last week.  I had to be carried out of the bar struck speechless.  Well, not really, but blooming expensive.  I felt my heart stop.

Just remember the SMIC rate is 8.05/hour now I think, times 35 = 1127€/month approximately.  The pension for retired farmers is about 300€ up here.  People cope because they have to.

I can spend a fortune but I can also live on nothing.  Good job I'm going to win you-know-what soon.

[Miki]

"...Good job I'm going to win you-know-what soon"

Well that's it then, I'm going to ring for tickets for next years Ladies final at Wimbledon right away then !!

And your SMIC is .02 centimes an hour more than here as well !! So you are better off than us poor Malouins !

[Alexis]

Blimey Miki, only a guess at the SMIC but I expect we are paid more here in the posh bit of Brittany.....must get a job!

I'll whisper it and promise not to tell another soul....Euromillions.

Go on.  Splash out 4€.  If you win, I'll be round.

[Jon 1]

Hi Lori,

I have long thought that the good ol USA is one of the cheapest places to live.  From my experience of travelling in the USA, virtually all commodities are cheaper there.  If you choose your State carefully, even house prices are considerably cheaper.  If I could be accepted as a US resident, and health care was not so expensive, I would quite happily settle there.  Despite the heat I particularly liked Arizona.  I find Americans to be generally very polite and civil, and those in Arizona, particularly so.  The out of town shopping malls were such good value.  A big contrast from the lack of customer care and civility in French supermarkets etc.  As an alternative I have often considered buying a 'C' class RV and touring the USA for 6 months then up to Canada and back again.  I often wish I had moved to the USA when we were a young family.  Having said all that, France has that certain 'je ne sais quoi' that keeps me interested, even when totally fed up with the place, from time to time.

Alexis,

I have considered moving further north to achieve a 'bigger bang per buck' if you pardon the expression.  Where would you recommend?  I would like cheaper housing, tax fonciere, food etc.  An absence of dog poo.  Friendly French, with nice customer care and civility in the tertiary and public sectors.  Nice scenery, preferably near water.  Not too cold in the winter months, with a good summer season.  A nice clean, interesting town centre, with a good range of interesting shops.  W.H.Y?

All contributions greatfully accepted.

[SaligoBay]

Blimey Jon, your area is a lot more expensive than up here. 

Sure is, Alexis.  The famous French café culcher is beyond our means!

Just remember the SMIC rate is 8.05/hour now I think, times 35 = 1127€/month approximately. 

8.03 an hour - you have to believe me, because to my shame I know!  And guess wot too, you don't even get all of it!  By the time a few cotisations are taken off it, you really are working for peanuts.  Travail noir pays much better.

 

[Alexis]

Well, isn't it about 20% deductions before tax?

I don't know about benefits available because I've never claimed but people I've worked with have touched something so they could be rolling in it.  Or not

[dave and aileen]

[quote]With no mortgage and producing some of your own food, you should expect to have quite a modest lifestyle on 15,000 euros pa, slightly better on 20,000 euros pa. I find that generally it is a little m...[/quote]

Hello, We live quite happily on 1000 euros a month, we have no mortgage and we bought a new carwith the last of the capital, which we considered a better investment than hanging onto a 10 yr old Peugot, Anyway, regarding phone bills, we are on Teleconnect and have just had the bill for the last 2 months in which included 62 international calls, some as long as 30mins, we have 5 children, and lots of others, it was 28 euros, but with the 26 euros for France telecom, thats still pretty cheap. Our heating is cheaper here, as is water and of course Community Charge equivalent, the 3 bedroomed house we had in Wales is now £1500 a year, here 358 euros.

Aileen

[Lizzie15]

Whereabouts are you in France Aileen?

 

[dave and aileen]

[quote]Whereabouts are you in France Aileen?[/quote]

Hello,

We are in Vigeois, in the beautiful Correze, to us its perfect and we have a permanent smile.

Aileen

[Will]

I suppose if you take a sizeable pension or similar from Britain to France and spend your time as if you were on permanent holiday then you will think life is wonderful and cheap.

We both work - me self employed, with all the costs that entails, doing the same as I was doing in England but based in France.  Mrs Conq is on the SMIC whereas she had a well-paid job in England, even taking into account commuting expenses. So there is effectively less coming in, which means that if, on average, living expenses were the same or more in France than they are in England we would be pretty badly off.

Despite that observation I can't put my hand on my heart and say that France is really less expensive. For every thing that is cheaper here I can think of something else that is dearer by a similar proportion.

It's not that we're out of touch, between us we return to England at least 15 times per year and we still own a house there. I think that it comes down to there being less opportunity to spend money in France, so living may appear to cost less.

The other question is that if France really is cheaper and/or better, why do we always return from every trip back to England with loads of stuff (and I'm not talking baked beans, marmite and cheddar cheese here)?

[Alexis]

Ah Jon, you want to be thinking about Finistére.  On the Gulf Stream so mild in winter . . . mild in summer too!  Houses on the coast aren't expensive - to me anyway and certainly not to you if you are in the South.

The coast around Vannes is warmer too but very expensive.

La Rochelle area?

What do you call interesting shops?  For me it is a book shop, fabric shops and a kitchen equipment shop....the first and last preferably in the UK.  I have been known to spend many hours in the DIY shop too.

We thought about buying a new place in Finiestére but after our Scottish adventure, my husband rather fancies there.  He wasn't the one bit by the midges.

[dave and aileen]

[quote]I suppose if you take a sizeable pension or similar from Britain to France and spend your time as if you were on permanent holiday then you will think life is wonderful and cheap. We both work - me s...[/quote]

Hello,

I note a slightly arrogant tone to that reply. We certainly do not have a sizeable pension, in fact my husband has no income at all, infact he has had major heart surgery since we arrived for which we are extremely grateful.We live onmy state retirment pension and small occupational pension, yes we are retired, but we jolly well deserve it. We grow our own veg, and take part in lots that is going on in the village. I give free english lessons to 2 groups of people in the village of varying ages, and we get friendship back by the bucket load. I couldn`t tell you what it was like to be on permanent holiday as while I was bringing up my 5 children as a single parent, and in full time work, I had neither time nor the money for holidays.

What will you do when you retire?

Aileen

[Will]

Sorry if you thought I was being arrogant or even that you read my comments as being in response to you, which you appear to have done by quoting from my posting.

I certainly wouldn't regard a pension of around 1000€ per month as sizeable - quite the opposite in fact. Plenty of people come to France with loads more than that by way of occupational pensions and still seem to complain about having to pay for certain things like health care which they might get cheaper, or even free, in Britain.

As long as you are happy, that's brilliant. There's more to richness and poverty than mere money, as you demonstrate. Those who think in terms of the cost of everything are lacking a lot in their lives (which I suppose could also been seen as an arrogant statement, but it's what I believe).

[dave and aileen]

[quote]Sorry if you thought I was being arrogant or even that you read my comments as being in response to you, which you appear to have done by quoting from my posting. I certainly wouldn't regard a pensi...[/quote]

Hello Will,

Thanks for that, we have a met a few like the ones you mention, but we have so much to thank France for, my husbands life for example, the doctors inUK sent him away to wait for another 2 years, fortunately the crisis was here, and there is no doubt that he would not have survivied, so the smile is for lots of reasons.

But we actually did a lot of research and ` benefits appraisals` before we moved, financial and otherwise, and there was no comparison, you could not live in UK on 1000 euros a month.

Aileen 

[SaligoBay]

you could not live in UK on 1000 euros a month.

There are many places in France where you couldn't live on it either!

[dave and aileen]

[quote]you could not live in UK on 1000 euros a month. There are many places in France where you couldn't live on it either![/quote]

Hello,

I`m glad we chose the Correze then, its really down to research again, if you have a limited income, you choose carefully. We couldnt have considered a more expensive area. But its the same in the UK, people move out to areas where they can afford to live.

Aileen

[Lori]

Jon, yes the U.S.A., to me, is a much cheaper place to live than France.  There are exceptions - New York, Boston, Chicago, and most of California (where we are from).  It is also quite pretty in many areas.

If there just weren't so many Americans... (smiley face)

 

[james419]

Greetings to one and all

I think the issue of what you can live on is largely a matter of what you want out of life in france, we moved for a quieter life and gave up work to enjoy life together having got married 2 years ago.

The thought of spending more hours in meetings and stress did not appeal - so we sold up and moved here - we are setting up to grow our own vegetables - the chicken,ducks and pigs will arrive in spring 2006.

My wife returns to the UK to see her mother every 4months otherwise appart from 2 days for a friends 65th we will not be returning this year, also visiting family in holland at the same time to keep overall mileage down. Could not possibly think of the multiple returns that some people seem to have whether by plane or car (Speedferries included)

I agree fully with the commenst made about the health service - being a diabetic I am much better off in France despite having to contribute to my drugs bill (all free in the UK) - my UK GP was superb - but try to get an appointment - first navigate past the patient disruption service (medical receptionists) and then told you have to wait 3 weeks - 2 years for a pediatrist - here same day for Doc and 48 hours for a pediatrist !!!

We know folk round here that have a very high cost of living - large house - pools - 2/3 cars - well if they can afford it and are happy - then so be it. We cannot afford these things on our income but have great neighbours who are always giving us fruit and veg - next year we will be able to reutn the favour - being a small community people help each other.

So we are at the cheap end of the living scale but are much happier because of the lifestyle change than having more and dying of fright eating in our local.

James

[Tourangelle]

I am always perplexed when people tell me they never go back like it is an achievement (this is not aimed at James, he just made me think). I love going back to Britain to see my friends there and my family, and I love having them here. I am lucky in that I have a lot of holiday from work, so we often combine family visits with a week away somewhere. I think Britain is a great place for a holiday! Especially as it can get so hot here in summer. I never ever feel stressed when I am there. It comes down to being somewhere I feel comfortable, but not having to worry about everyday life. I rent, and frankly I am much better off here in terms of what I can rent than I was in the UK.