Charlie Hebdo

[Clarkkent]

After some searching, I found the controversial cartoons. My judgement was that they hadn't been intended to be offensive but to express irony - on the way that Mahomet's message had been hijacked. Everyone should have the opportunity to make a judgement for himself.

One of the complaints of the objectors - that it is forbidden to show a likeness of the prophet - is just plain wrong. There is no such prohibition, Mahomet did not want his image to be worshipped: the prohibition is against idolatry. There is a long tradition of portraits of the prophet and I believe that the University of Edinburgh has an extensive collection.

It is clear that there has been a deliberate campaign to generate discontent by using outrage to inflame the passions of muslims whose understanding of their religion is not very deep. The history of Abu Hansa, as it emerged during and since his trial, suggests that anyone can set himself up as an imam and pursue his own agenda.

Most of the muslims in Britain and France are descended from immigrants from agrarian and impoverished cultures. I believe that their behaviour often reflects those cultures rather than their religion - and this includes the treatment of women.

 

 

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

It was in response to Alexis post, our ancestors certainly did not always respect other religions and ways of life, of course the British way was always 'superior' [/quote]

And the French way, the German way, the Dutch way, the Portuguese way, the Spanish way......... oh and the Arab way, musn't forget that, they were in Spain for a long long time!

It's just the way of the world.  Roman Empire, Byzantine Empire, China in Tibet, the British Empire,the current American Empire, France and its precious DOMTOMS, what can you do?   To single out Britain as having the monopoly on empire-building is kind of arrogant, I think.

[quote user="Russethouse"]And when Alexis talks about people coming to our country, we should remember that our country is now multi faith and multi cultural - the day is long past when Brits were all white protestants.[/quote]

But what exactly IS multi-faith?   In religious terms it's that wishy-washy "let's pretend we all worship the same thing really". 

Culturally, I think it's a bit of a dream as well.  One element will always be dominant, whether it's white, black, Protestant, Catholic, secular, Muslim, Hindu, or dog-eating.   At the moment in Britain the dominant culture seems to be "multi-faith".   But it can't stay like that for ever.  One day the balance will change, and I think people worry that it will change in favour of, say, the Muslim culture.

My forays into Islam suggest that ideally, Islam should be present in all aspects of your life, it is complete submission to Allah.  So logically, if Muslims are "in charge" in a country, more and more aspects of life in that country will change to suit.   You may not like Tony Blair et al, but would you really like to see an array of mullahs and ayatollahs in their place?

I'm not saying people are RIGHT to be scared of Islam, but I can see why they might be.

I've just ordered a book about it from Amazon, I shall come back with more wise words once I've read that!  I hope it's better than the last one I got, a turgid tome by Tariq Ramadan.  The pages are quite shiny too, so it won't even burn that well on the fire.   

 

 

[Dick Smith]

Clark, the portayal of the prophet has been in and out of favour several times in the history of Islam, just as representational art has been in and out of favour in Christianity - think of the Byzantine iconoclasts, or the Puritans in England as extreme examples. I believe that the Taleban destruction of images of the Buddha were similarly motivated.

There is a proscription against making images of God, however, in the Judaeo-Christian-Islamic tradition, and the ambiguous 'not making graven images' commandment, which can be interpreted according to taste.

Yes, their views reflect what are often primitive and poorly educated societies.  I once had a kid who claimed that he could not take part in music lessons for religious reasons (he was Muslim). His father insisted on this, and so I took advice from an Imam at the Regents' Park mosque, who told me that there was no such prohibition, indeed that there is a strong tradition of music-making in Islamic societies. Some fundamentalists, however, believe that music can lead to dancing and dancing can lead to immodest and lascivious behaviour, so they ban it. At that time (about 15 years ago) such people were seen as unrepresentative fanatics by other Moslems, but I am not sure whether they would be now, as fundamentalism seems to be getting a firmer hold. The Imam referred to my man as a 'primitive backwoodsman'.

We also need to remember that this is a time of fundamentalism (and retreat from reason) in other religions and societies. Look at the rise of Christian fundamentalism in the USA, and attempts to teach creationism rather than evolution - or the poll in the UK which showed that only half the population believe that natural selection explains speciation. There is a similar movement in Judaism and even - amazingly - in such a gentle faith as Hinduism.

[Teamedup]

Isn't that the point Russethouse. Accepting other religions is all very well and good....... but we got 'over' being 'church run' and don't want or need any other religious group forcing theirs upon us.  AND I realise lots of people moved to western europe for work, but the other point is that people also moved because of the freedoms and laws we have in western europe that they do not have in their own countries....... and it often feels to me that our freedoms are being used against us.

 I believe in speaking up and if the apple cart gets rocked well tant pis and I for one am prepared to speak up. Eroded freedoms need defending.

My sensibilites have no less value than anyone else's and no one who happens to believe in some god(s) or other is better than I am either.

I have now seen some of those cartoons. No worse than those caracatures I have seen in the past about western politicians in the middle east. And should we mention all that US flag burning that goes on or the burning of effigies of Blair or Bush or who ever. Not even any worse than some cartoonists idea of god or jesus in the western press.

[Dick Smith]

TU said

I believe in speaking up and if the apple cart gets rocked well tant pis and I for one am prepared to speak up

Don't you see that that is the attitude which caused the offence in the first place? How about a bit of judicious (possibly respectful) silence rather than gob it up and offend people? Or is that what you want to do?

[Russethouse]

Moderator hat off

TU - these cartoons were first published 4 months ago - there was no problem then but they have been republished and used to incite trouble by people in society whose cause this suits. By reacting in the way you have, all you do is let those people win, that is their purpose, to cause division.

4000 moderate muslims marched in London yesterday in protest at the publication of the cartoons, there was no violence, no arrests and therefore very little publicity.

 

[Viv]

Could this just be the thin end of the wedge though? OK, we ban the cartoons, what then if a section of the muslim community wants to start practising female circumcision or if British Shias want to start celebrating 'ashura' by cutting themselves or more worryingly their babies because "it is part of their culture" ?

[Teamedup]

 

Don't you see that that is the attitude which caused the offence in the first place? How about a bit of judicious (possibly respectful) silence rather than gob it up and offend people? Or is that what you want to do?

 

What a horrible world the world would be for us women if we took that point of view. It already is for millions and millions of the world's women.

 

And such comments frighten and appal me as much as any rabid ayttollahs.

[Teamedup]

Exactly Viva, there have been several court cases in France prosecuting parents who have circumsized their daughters and as this is cultural, covers various religous groups, the only thing they have had in common is that every family  has been from Africa.

[Dick Smith]

TU I am sorry, but not surprised, that the idea of tact and diplomacy so appals you.

Clearly you believe that you should be able to shout your mouth off and then look at the consequences saying "what?"

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Dicksmith"]Clearly you believe that you should be able to shout your mouth off and then look at the consequences saying "what?"
[/quote]

But doesn't the same apply to both sides in this, Dick?   A number of Muslims are very good at shouting their mouths off too.  Why are they then surprised that Westerners think they're beyond reason?

Remember we're not talking about super-educated, PC  people like wot us on here are, we're talking about your average bloke on the Clapham omnibus or the streets of Kabul.

There are madmen (and yes they are mostly men) on both sides.   I still think this whole thing was stirred up (I mean, really, how many Indonesians or Irakis read Danish newspapers, for goodness sake!).

TU does have the right to speak up.

[Alexis]

I don't give a monkey's for all these high words and all this bending over backwards to be politically correct and not racist etc.;...the truth of the matter is that the normal British born person who can find his ancestors right back to the Doomsday Book is now nothing in "His" country.

Second or even third class citizens.  All these people who moved to the UK to work and took their code of dress and religion with them HAVE NOT GOT TO BE UPSET.

Where does that leave the natives then?  Certainly, they seem to be the last in the line when decisions are made.

Musn't say this.  Mustn't say that.  Musn't say no, arranged marriages are not on.  Musn't say no, you can't mutilate your daughters.  Can't have Christian festivals it upsets the other races....well tough.

A multi-faith country sounds wonderfull but should include ALL the faiths.  Not just the ones introduced in the past fifty years.

IT IS ONLY FAIR.

I must say also, that the people who arrive in the UK are lucky because other countries wouldn't treat them as tolerantly as the British.  Which is why it is probably the Number One destination.

[Dick Smith]

If you have the right to speak you also have the responsibilty to know that it might be better to keep quiet - as assorted newspapers publishing the cartoons 'to prove the freedom of the press' ought to know.

Because someone else behaves badly does that give me the obligation to? No, it doesn't. TU does not have a 'right' to look at these cartoons, and no-one has the obligation to show them to her if to do so causes offence. That is just crass behaviour - and it does go both ways, but as I said before we can only take responsibility for our own behaviour, not that of other people.

And by the way - the author of the offensive posters at the recent London demonstration (not the peaceful one yesterday) was a woman...

[Dick Smith]

Isn't it so easy to see something you don't like and howl 'political correctness' - didn't you object when someone called everyone who disagreed with them a 'treehugger'?

It is not political correctness to try to treat other people with respect - and all the rubbish about the Domesday (note spelling) Book is just that - rubbish. There are damn-all people in the UK who have a lineage back 1000 years unmixed with any nasty foreigners - unless your name is Aethelbald, of course.

The rest of your post is equally untrue, but this is the sort of overheated hysterical rubbish that winds debate up into argument (which I suspect is your aim) and gives the slimy ones the basis they need to spread their political poison. Well done.

[Teamedup]

It must be very heady and intoxicating up there in Academia.

You obviously believe your considered and worthy silence has virtue, my saying anything is gobbing it off or shouting my mouth off.  What a choice of vocabulary. Does it make you feel righteous and superior to say such things, it is obvious to me that it does, as you are fond of making such comments to me. I may not have had the benefit of your education, but I am not stupid, I do actually understand what you write.  

I have seen muslim women demonstrating and provoking all sorts of bad things. Shame on them, shame on them worse than the men who demonstrate.

 

 

[Russethouse]

Alexis, your rant reminds me of a relative who spouted some of this nonsense at a family get together a few weeks ago, with the net result that my sister mentally slashed her wedding guest list by 10 relatives (you can't ask relative A and not B can you ? , you know the sort of thing) because she would rather that her friends attend, whatever there colour, creed or sexuality than someone with such a blinkered view. Saved her a fortune !

I hope you and TU are not in for an unpleasant surprise when you return to the UK, but in the most part I think you find that trashy newspapers not withstanding, most ordinary peoples aim is to live in harmony with their fellow man whatever his race or religion. Re acting to these trouble makers just fuels the flames - what sort of society do you want for your children and grandchildren, one where you are constantly watching your back or one where they live side by side with others whatever the differences in their culture?

 

[Dick Smith]

No TU I do not live in 'Academia' I live in a racially and religiously mixed area (unlike your belived north-east, recently found to be the most racist area in the UK) and I have spent my working life with people from many ethnic and religious communities, so don't patronise me like you do everyone else on this forum. Having a bigger mouth doesn't make you more right, and shouting it off doesn't make your view more valid.

Look at what I am saying (for a moment think of someone else's point of view) - you CAN do all sorts of things, you may even have a RIGHT (whatever that means) to do them - but it may not be WISE or CLEVER to insist on doing them if you know that you will offend other people or inflame already difficult situations.

Read what Gay has written - she is more temperate than I am, and she is perfectly correct.

[Tresco]

I don't give a monkey's for all these high words and all this bending over backwards to be politically correct and not racist etc.;....

Musn't say this.  Mustn't say that.  Musn't say no, arranged marriages are not on.  Musn't say no, you can't mutilate your daughters. 

(Alexis)

Get a grip; that's just ridiculous. Of course you can. Many do, and some of the loudest voices, and the most tireless workers trying to stop FGM and forced marriage are Muslims, both here and in Africa.

 

 

 

 

[Patf]

To me the most worrying aspect of this drama is how many countries have

vociferous groups of fundamentalist muslims, who don't practise birth

control and have big families. At one stage recently, for example, in

Israel the number of arabs/muslims was almost equal to that of the

jews, because the muslims have a higher birth rate. Sooner rather than

later western countries need to work out a policy combining tact and

sensitivity and legal boundaries in order to avoid more conflicts as

this problem will only grow with the rapid growth in muslim population.

Not so easy. Pat.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

...the truth of the

matter is that the normal British born person who can find his

ancestors right back to the Doomsday Book is now nothing in "His"

country.

The truth of the matter is

that such a person, "pure bred" from 1066 almost certainly doesn't

exist. Even if they did - so what? Would they be higher born than the

rest of us?

Second or even third

class citizens.  All these people who moved to the UK to work and

took their code of dress and religion with them HAVE NOT GOT TO BE

UPSET.

Who

are second and third class citizens? If you are of the opinion that

people of colour are finding themselves treated like royalty in Britain

and Europe then I am afraid that you are mistaken.

Where does that leave the natives then?  Certainly, they seem to be the last in the line when decisions are made.

Assuming

that by "natives" you mean white folks, you will be delighted to hear

that thay outnumber the "ethnics" by a ratio of about 10 to 1. Where

does that leave the natives? In the best jobs, with the best education

and living in the nicest areas...

Musn't say this. 

Mustn't say that.  Musn't say no, arranged marriages are not

on.  Musn't say no, you can't mutilate your daughters.  Can't

have Christian festivals it upsets the other races....well tough.

Christian

festivals??? Sunday as a special Christian day was given up quite

cheerfully by the "Christian" masses so they could spend more time in

spiritual comtemplation with their credit cards, not at the insistance

of a bunch of mad mullahs. Christmas itself is just a consumer frenzey

with little or no mention of the Nativity. Easter is about chocolate

and bunnies. Of which festivals were you thinking? Some of the most

prominant "Happy Christmas" signs I saw in London last December were

attached to a mosque on the Edgeware road. Frankly, it increasingly

seems that Christ (as a prophet, not as saviour) gets far more serious

attention from some sections of Islam than from half of those nominally

describing themselves as "Christian."

I must say also, that the

people who arrive in the UK are lucky because other countries wouldn't

treat them as tolerantly as the British.  Which is why it is

probably the Number One destination.

Happily, yes, the British

are still widely regarded as being the just about the most tolerant and

fair minded nation on Earth. I think that that is something to be

rather proud of. The second part of your last sentence I don't quite

understand - number one in numbers of recent incomers?  In terms

of refugees? Because the UK most certainly is neither.

[Viv]

I don't think the 100 per cent Brit exists either. We are a mongrel race. That said, over the years immigrants/invaders have been assimilated and have become something that is identified as "British." Yes, we have words of French derivative in the British language but we do not speak French. We have had Jews in the UK for hundreds of years and they historically have had a torrid time just in the UK, the Catholics also had a rough time. Yet we don't here a murmur out of them or the Chinese , Greek and countless other communities.

As I have said before, I could not live in many Muslim countries because their values, beliefs , ideas whatever are just too different to mine . In an ideal world everybody could live together but this has never happened, and I think it is naive to think it really ever will, I really think the clash of cultures is just too much. But then I am a Hard Hat (confirmed athiest) according to the Humanist magazine, so maybe I should lighten up a bit.

But I doubt it.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="viva"]

We have had Jews in the UK for hundreds of years

and they historically have had a torrid time just in the UK, the

Catholics also had a rough time. Yet we don't here a murmur out of them

or the Chinese , Greek and countless other communities.

[/quote]

Viva - what about Northern Ireland?

[Viv]

[quote user="jond"][quote user="viva"]

We have had Jews in the UK for hundreds of years and they historically have had a torrid time just in the UK, the Catholics also had a rough time. Yet we don't here a murmur out of them or the Chinese , Greek and countless other communities.

[/quote]

Viva - what about Northern Ireland?
[/quote]

yes mentioned them previously and how they have / had a terrible time.

[Renaud]

I wonder to what extent the UK government's response (Jack Straw et al) to the demonstrations is determined by a fear of losing the UK muslim vote.

[Russethouse]

>>To me the most worrying aspect of this drama is how many countries have vociferous groups of fundamentalist Muslims, who don't practice birth control and have big families.<<

Did that worry you when it was Catholics forbidden to use birth control - how many Irish Catholics do you think we have had in mainland GB over the years - no one gives a hoot !

Every religion has fundamentalist groups, Christianity included !

As for the attitude 'we have never lived in peace with other religions, nothing will change' I just don't agree. We had never been to the moon before, but we have now............surely we have learned something from history. The human race faces plenty of challenges without adding religious intolerance to them.