Charlie Hebdo

[Teamedup]

Anyone try and fail to buy a copy of Charlie Hebdo yesterday. All sold out around here.

 

My wish is the CFCM fail in their porte plainte. If we cannot have caricatures AND irreverence AND satire, just what sort of society will we end up with.

 

I just hope that french justice shows good sense with regards to this.

 

Vive les artistes!

[Dick Smith]

We may end up in a society without TOLERANCE and CONSIDERATION FOR OTHER PEOPLE'S FEELINGS and GENERAL GOOD SENSE.

I can say lots of things, it is in my use of judgement of when to stay silent that I show my civilisation.

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Dicksmith"]I can say lots of things, it is in my use of judgement of when to stay silent that I show my civilisation.
[/quote]

Ooooohhhh Dick, you're treading on dangerous ground here!   Many Muslims are rioting and destroying embassies and wishing death (loudly and publicly) on Westerners and unbelievers.   They're not being silent about it.   I know we're allowed to heap scorn upon such behaviour when English football hooligans do it, but we're not allowed to say it if it's Muslims.  

[Dick Smith]

My point, SB, is that I am free to say what I want. That does not mean that I do not exercise judgement in what I say or decline to say. I cannot decide for other people, only hope that they can eventually achieve a little wisdom, and see the irony in their position.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Dicksmith"]My point, SB, is that I am free to say what I

want. That does not mean that I do not exercise judgement in what I say

or decline to say. I cannot decide for other people, only hope that

they can eventually achieve a little wisdom, and see the irony in their

position.

[/quote]

Good point. Common-or-garden courtesy in the excercise of "free speech"

is important. It is ease itself to cause offence and hurt to

practically any group under the guise of speaking freely, but most

people (fortunately) manage to avoid being quite so crass by

recognising taboos. I'm disappointed that CH decided to reprint these

cartoons - a deliberately provocative act - but having read the

magazine in the past, I'm not entirely surprised.

I often think that journalists are the last people on earth who should

be allowed to exercise free speech as they seem to take very little

care in doing so, but then one always pops up and surprises me by

producing something actually thoughtful.

[Viv]

I really think that the Muslim community are being over sensitive to what are just pictures. It is a taboo in their religion / culture only.In the 'West' we have thankfully come along way since the times when religion was a subject that could not be discussed or challenged and to afford any religion protection from this is in my mind a backward step. 

[Richard-R]

Is it not also taboo in Islam to murder innocent people?

Do not see them protesting againt muslim terrorists! In fact one of them dressed as a suicide bomber.

Funny that.

[Richard-R]

The financial obligation upon Muslims.

An important principle of Islam is that everything belongs to God, and that wealth is therefore held by human beings in trust. The word zakah means both "purification" and "growth." Our possessions are purified by setting aside a proportion for those in need and for the society in general. Like the pruning of plants, this cutting back balances and encourages new growth.

Each Muslim calculates his or her own zakah individually. This involves the annual payment of a fortieth of one's capital, excluding such items as primary residence, car and professional tools.

An individual may also give as much as he or she pleases as sadaqa-h, and does so preferably in secret. Although this word can be translated as "voluntary charity" it has a wider meaning.

The Prophet said, "Even meeting your brother with a cheerful face is an act of charity." The Prophet also said: "Charity is a necessity for every Muslim." He was asked: "What if a person has nothing?" The Prophet replied: "He should work with his own hands for his benefit and then give something out of such earnings in charity." The Companions of the Prophet asked: "What if he is not able to work?" The Prophet said: "He should help the poor and needy." The Companions further asked: "What if he cannot do even that?" The Prophet said: "He should urge others to do good." The Companions said: "What if he lacks that also?" The Prophet said: "He should check himself from doing evil. That is also an act of charity."

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="viva"]

I really think that the Muslim community are

being over sensitive to what are just pictures. It is a taboo in their

religion / culture only.In the 'West' we have thankfully come along way

since the times when religion was a subject that could not be

discussed or challenged and to afford

any religion protection from this is in my

mind a backward step. 

[/quote]

These are not "just pictures" - to a section of the world numbering

several hundreds of millions they are profoundly offensive images.

There are plenty of taboos in western culture. If you want a simple

example, think of a few words that are now (for most people at least)

unacceptable descriptions of afro carribians, south asians or the

disabled. I'm sure I don't need to spell them out: indeed, I would feel

uncomfortable doing so....because they are taboo. For us it's words, in

Islam it is pictures. Respect begins and ends with understanding each

others taboos. And, yes, I know that some middle eastern publications

produce some pretty offensive copy too and, yes, some of those

protesters behaved in a pretty appaling manner, but I rather hope that

mankind is aiming to get beyond the"yah boo" mentality of the

playground. Using offense taken as a justification for offence given

really doesn't wash once one gets above a mental age of ten.

[Brilec]

[quote user="Rdkr"]Is it not also taboo in Islam to murder innocent people? Do not see them protesting againt muslim terrorists! In fact one of them dressed as a suicide bomber. Funny that.[/quote]

And today there is a Muslim demonstration in London, which is also protesting about the "Muslim" extremists.

As Dick suggested, it was the original act of publishing the items which was deliberately aimed at being contraversial. They knew what reaction they would most likely get, and it seems to me that this was their only reason for publishing.

For instance, under freedom of speech, I could go round insulting everyone I meet, providing I don't write, or say to a third party, anything which is intrue. But I doubt if this would get a friendly response.

So why should anyone think that it is reasonable to insult a particular ethnic group, but not reasonable when they object?

If for instance, someone were to publish the statement that all catholic priests were paedophiles, on the basis that perhaps one or two individuals have been condemned for this horrendous crime, there would, quite rightly be outrage, as the statement would be blatently untrue.

Yet the cartoon, or at least the one I saw, did suggest to me that all followers of Islam were bombers.

You cannot tar the whole with the acts of a relative few, no matter what the rights of freedom of speech give you.

Brian.

[Polycarpe]

Well said, Jond and Dick.

A right to free speech has to be balanced by a duty to show respect for the sensibilities of others. No right is absolute.

[Teamedup]

I find all religions deeply offensive. I don't mean irritating, I mean right to the core of me. When are my sensibilties EVER taken into account.......

I don't want censorship and I want to see what this danish artist has 'said'.

 

If other rags haven't the guts to show this piece of work, well I hope that Charlie Hebdo republishes.

Other rags should have posted it.

 

 

[Viv]

I appreciate that there are taboos in western culture but I am talking about religious taboos. The days when one could be in real big trouble for criticizing Christianity thankfully ended many years ago and I can enjoy my dvds of Father Ted  without being dragged off by the Spanish Inquisition!

There are aspects of Islam that I find difficult to understand, the way animals are killed for one, the fact that in some countries they still have laws allowing adulteresses to be stoned, that women are worth less than men, but we have to accept that this is the way they want to live and it is their right to do so. These to me are far more offensive than a cartoon of Mohammed which clearly is not a real likeness, any more than a photograph of anyone called Mohammed is. It just seems to me at the moment that the tolerance and concessions are all one way.

[Viv]

 

QUOTE  If for instance, someone were to publish the statement that all catholic priests were paedophiles, on the basis that perhaps one or two individuals have been condemned for this horrendous crime, there would, quite rightly be outrage, as the statement would be blatently untrue.

 

Yes but I think the reaction would be a little less extreme.

[Russethouse]

[quote user="Teamedup"]

I find all religions deeply offensive. I don't mean irritating, I mean right to the core of me. When are my sensibilties EVER taken into account.......

I don't want censorship and I want to see what this danish artist has 'said'.

If other rags haven't the guts to show this piece of work, well I hope that Charlie Hebdo republishes.

Other rags should have posted it. [/quote]

 

Why do you want to see if that is how you feel about religion? Why would you care ?

Most moderate Muslims were offended by the cartoons, but were not interested in demonstrating, causing riots etc. The people who are causing the trouble in my view are those that are whipping up animosity especially among younger muslims, often unemployed and having fallen through the educational 'net' - you remember TU, just the types that caused the riots in Paris not so long ago.

Why give these trouble makers the ammunition - why keep on and on republishing these images if not to purposely cause offence ?

 

 

 

[Teamedup]

Is it not my 'right' to see what all this furory is about. Who knows I may, if EVER I see it think that it should never have seen the light of day as it was bete.  Anyone has a link for this cartoon, could you please PM me with it.

 

Personally I rather think that full employment for the residents of  the cites of France may well lead to less militancy and no rioting.

 

Just my point of view from comments I have had said to me recently, but the race problem in France, which was always there is getting far worse.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="viva"]

I appreciate that there are taboos in western

culture but I am talking about religious taboos. The days when one

could be in real big trouble for criticizing Christianity

thankfully ended many years ago and I can enjoy my dvds of Father

Ted  without being dragged off by the Spanish Inquisition!

There are aspects of Islam that I find difficult to understand, the

way animals are killed for one, the fact that in some countries they

still have laws allowing adulteresses to be stoned, that women are

worth less than men, but we have to accept that this is the way they

want to live and it is their right to do so. These to me are far more

offensive than a cartoon of Mohammed which clearly is not a real

likeness, any more than a photograph of anyone called Mohammed is. It

just seems to me at the moment that the tolerance and concessions are

all one way.

[/quote]

Oh I don't know: the bars and beaches of Turkey, Egypt and Tunisia seem

pretty tolerant to me. In one Islamic republic where the sale and

consumption of alcohol is forbidden (Mauritania) I was given, some

years ago, a permit to both purchase and consume alcohol for "cultural"

reasons. I'd call that tolerant. It is not all one-way, and anyway,

someone has to make the first effort if peaceful co-existence is ever

to be achieved.

[Viv]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

Most moderate Muslims were offended by the cartoons, but were not interested in demonstrating, causing riots etc. The people who are causing the trouble in my view are those that are whipping up animosity especially among younger muslims, often unemployed and having fallen through the educational 'net' - you remember TU, just the types that caused the riots in Paris not so long ago.

[/quote]

I think this is a very valid point. Just as in Ireland the Troubles ran far deeper than religious differences, it was more about equality of opportunity etc. It is feasible that this current furore, is for many young poorly educated, unemployed , angry young muslim men a smokescreen for their similar greivances.

[Mistral]

TU, if you want to see the cartoons, then the news BBC site coverage of this has a link to a Courier international page.

I found them not very impressive.

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Rdkr"]As Dick suggested, it was the original act of publishing the items which was deliberately aimed at being contraversial. They knew what reaction they would most likely get, and it seems to me that this was their only reason for publishing.[/quote]

Yes, but they weren't published last week.  Or the week before.  Or even last month.  They were published in September.   This "reaction" is organised and planned by some very bad people for their own very bad reasons.

[quote user="Brilec"]So why should anyone think that it is reasonable to insult a particular ethnic group, but not reasonable when they object?.[/quote]

People are free to object to whatever they want, but if mindless violence isn't okay for "us", it's not okay for "them" either. 

[quote user="Brilec"]If for instance, someone were to publish the statement that all catholic priests were paedophiles, on the basis that perhaps one or two individuals have been condemned for this horrendous crime, there would, quite rightly be outrage, as the statement would be blatently untrue.[/quote]

But people say this kind of thing all the time!!  There are so many jokes about it.  Read Abbé Pierre's views about the claim that Christ had sex with Mary Magdelene - he says in fact it really makes no difference to his faith at all, because his faith is strong enough.  He doesn't have to go on the warpath about it.  Responding with violence to these things is a sign that you don't have enough faith in your religion to believe that it can rise above them.  

[Russethouse]

>>>Responding with violence to these things is a sign that you don't have enough faith in your religion to believe that it can rise above them.  <<<

I think that is the key - look at the ages of those demonstrating - its mainly young people, possibly still at a stage where they are not entirely sure of who they are, where they fit and whats it all about (Alfie !) as they say. They probably do not have enough faith or knowledge to feel secure in their religion and hope/think that by taking a stance some great certainty will come to them.

I suspect that this is being stirred up, on both sides, by those who profit from a lack of harmony.

[Alexis]

I don't see why we all seem to be leaning over backwards and giving other religions everything they want and they have moved to OUR country.

If I move to a country with a different religion to mine and they say drinking is banned, I wouldn't drink.  If they cut off your hand for stealing, I certainly wouldn't steal.  If I had to wear long clothes and keep my face covered, I would.

Why can't other religions/cultures do that when THEY move to a new country?  Of course they have the right to dress and worship as they want...but they must also follow that Countries laws.

Why do we "let" the Chinese people have a Chinese New Year or "let" the Jews celebrate their Sabbath etc and we have to "give up" our Christmas as it is "not fair" to other Communities not of our religion?

Very unfair.  I think the British must be the most tolerant people in the World.

The cartoon was on the telly here for days.  I can't say the raving, angry, Muslim thugs got very good publicity.  Animals.  Terrible.  Apparently they were an organised bunch who had been paid.

[Russethouse]

Didn't our ancestors move to all sorts of places and inflict 'Christianity' on the native population ?

Don't forget that many Muslims ARE British - there is no getting away from it !

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

Didn't our ancestors move to all sorts of places and inflict 'Christianity' on the native population ?

Don't forget that many Muslims ARE British - there is no getting away from it !

[/quote]

I saw this post last night, Russethouse, and didn't understand its relevance.  This morning, I still don't.  Can you explain it, please?

[Russethouse]

I don't see why we all seem to be leaning over backwards and giving other religions everything they want and they have moved to OUR country.

If I move to a country with a different religion to mine and they say drinking is banned, I wouldn't drink.  If they cut off your hand for stealing, I certainly wouldn't steal.  If I had to wear long clothes and keep my face covered, I would.

Why can't other religions/cultures do that when THEY move to a new country?  Of course they have the right to dress and worship as they want...but they must also follow that Countries laws.

It was in response to Alexis post, our ancestors certainly did not always respect other religions and ways of life, of course the British way was always 'superior'

And when Alexis talks about people coming to our country, we should remember that our country is now multi faith and multi cultural - the day is long past when Brits were all white protestants.