Re: Is the UK next?

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

Kathy, you are assuming that the men force it on the women, these days it seems it is not always the case, some women chose to wear the burqa sometimes even persuading their husbands.

[/quote]

I suppose it depends where you are, Russethouse.   In some countries where Islam is the norm, a woman's lot is not necessarily a happy one.  http://article.wn.com/view/2006/11/13/Afghan_conference_to_focus_on_selfimmolation/

And I'm sure you'll have read "The Bookseller of Kabul", or "The Swallows of Kabul".  Both interesting reads about a society that requires the wearing of the burqa.

Does anyone remember MWJ saying once about having to learn the different customs to work in Arabic countries?    As a woman, even if you're professionally on the same level as the Arab men, you don't offer to shake their hand, because that would be offensive to them.   A man can do it, but you can't.

There is NO compulsion in Islam to wear a veil.  If there was, all Muslims would wear it. 

Getting the vote for women, equal pay for women, all that stuff took courage and sacrifice on the part of many people, and we've benefitted hugely from the resulting freedom.   Why all this sudden support for a lifestyle that restricts women?   

It's not really about "people should wear what they want", is it?   How many non-Muslim women regularly, in public, cover themselves up entirely?    They are proclaiming their adherence to a particular religious belief system, one which can result in harm to women.  

There's enough talk on these forums about the importance of integration when one moves to France.  If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander, surely?   

[Tresco]

[quote user="SaligoBay"] Getting the vote for women, equal pay for women, all that stuff took courage and sacrifice on the part of many people, and we've benefitted hugely from the resulting freedom.   Why all this sudden support for a lifestyle that restricts women?   

  [/quote]

So you support this illiberal proposal, which seems to me to plumb the very depths of intolerance, because you think it will defend or protect some of the things we hold most dear?

It seems oxymoronic, this stance.

[Tresco]

[quote user="hastobe"]

My point is simply - the wearing of the burqa is symbolic - it represents a suppressive system which is inconsistent with the rights and freedoms that should be available to all UK citizens and  I, personnally, find that unacceptable - as unacceptable as the wearing of a swastika.
[/quote]

You want to ban symbols? All of them, or just those which you find distasteful?

I disagree with the banning of the swastika, by the way, and I doubt anyone would disagree with me, that that symbol has become one of the most most loathed symbols of all time. Including by me.

.

 

[Bugsy]

[quote user="Tresco"]

Anyone who says they conform to customs/norms/laws when in another country aren't telling the whole story, really. No single person gives up every aspect of their culture when moving abroad. Just the ones they can't get away with (in public). And as Logan has pointed out, coforming isn't the same as being compelled by the law.[/quote]

That's not what I said, actually, if you choose to read my thread in total. It's really no different to the 'Brit Clic's' that have sprung up in many area's in France. Whole hamlets taken over and so 'English' it hurts. The French just smile, of course, being the tolerant people they are, but there is, I'm sure, an underlying resentment to the lack of intergration.

Going back to the thread,

Where the whole argument goes wrong is the current trend to stick a derogatory label on anyone who happens to have a view different to the vocal B,H,Liberals so much at the forefront of these debates.

There is a huge majority of people in the UK who don't share the view of an integrated multi-culteral society living in peace and harmony. They simply, keep their heads below the parapet for fear of becoming labelled or worse, falling foul of some of the new legislation drafted to ensure that you can't open your mouth, any more.

I'm done with this...................................................Have a Nice Day...................

[Tresco]

[quote user="Bugbear"]

That's not what I said, actually...

...Where the whole argument goes wrong is the current trend to stick a derogatory label on anyone who happens to have a view different to the vocal B,H,Liberals so much at the forefront of these debates.[/quote]

I didn't say it was what you said Bugbear.

Nor have I used any derogatory terms, unlike you, unless you use Bleeding Heart Liberal in a positive sense?[;-)]

[Bugsy]

Sorry, a mis-understanding ...............................................and BHL was not meant in derogatory terms, just in general terms and no offence meant or implied.

[B][B]xx

[Tresco]

None taken Sir. [:)]

Indeed, I wear it as a badge of honour![;-)]

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Tresco"][quote user="SaligoBay"] Getting the vote for women, equal pay for women, all that stuff took courage and sacrifice on the part of many people, and we've benefitted hugely from the resulting freedom.   Why all this sudden support for a lifestyle that restricts women?   

  [/quote]

So you support this illiberal proposal, which seems to me to plumb the very depths of intolerance, because you think it will defend or protect some of the things we hold most dear?

It seems oxymoronic, this stance.

[/quote]

I'm not saying whether I support it or not!  

The paradox is in tolerating intolerance.   But I guess that's the whole point of tolerance?    Love the sinner but hate the sin, as some famous bloke said.

Normally, a "liberal" view would not be very supportive of a régime that results in burqa-wearing.  Suddenly it is very supportive.   Just wondering why, that's all.

[Russethouse]

Maybe UK society is becoming more tolerant of it because some of the women wearing it show every sign of deciding to wear it for themselves, (remember many of these women are 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants) they certainly do not seem oppressed, under the thumb or dominated by males in their society, in fact as I have said before they have sometimes had to persuade their husbands that it IS what they want.

While we see it as a sign of oppression perhaps the meaning of wearing the burqa for these women, has changed ? Perhaps they are taking rather a 'pick & mix' attitude to their faith, but isn't that what many of us do ? After all other religions and cultures progress and alter over the years - should we be surprised if the role of female Muslims changes, especially in Western society?

I accept what Kathie says - there are still sadly cases where women are forced into this way of life, but we can no longer assume that is the case every time we see a woman wearing a burqa.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This is by Aasiyah Yusef from the letters page of  Peterborough today:

Can I also make a point here about the stereotypical oppressed Muslim women, and say that yes there are Muslim women who are oppressed, just at there are women all over the world, from every walk of life, nationality and religion, who are oppressed by men, culture, economics and lack of education.

But Islam does not oppress women, it elevates them, gives them dignity and gives them rights. I have met many sisters since my conversion to Islam, intelligent, opinionated and articulate women, both born Muslims and fellow converts, women who, like myself, hold down good jobs, women with university educations, women who are extremely happy with their lives and the choices they have made, many of whom have made an informed and conscientious choice to wear the niqab.

As to whether a woman should have the right to wear the niqab, then the answer is unequivocally "yes"

[Patf]

Russehouse wrote,"other religions progress and alter over the years." My experience is with living in an orthodox Jewish community for a while, where all married women cover their hair, but certainly not their faces, either with a hat a snood a wig or a scarf. Younger females never do. The origin of this is a passage in Numbers:5:18 when the woman taken in adultery has her hair uncovered by the priest. I believe that much of Sharia law is derived from or originates from Jewish law, so presumably this is the source for Muslim women to cover their hair. The added restriction of covering the face will be similar to extra "fences" being created around the law by the rabbis, in this case the mullahs. While living in this community I talked to some of the older ladies who said they didn't cover their hair when first married, only maybe a hat to go out in. As people became more affluent other hair coverings came available and the rabbis gradually interpreted the law more strictly, and women became more horrified at the idea of their wig being blown off in the wind!. So things do change. Personally I would allow the wearing of the burqua, but have reservations about the possible security threat they present. Pat.

[Renaud]

I received this as an email today. I thought that it might make a contribution to this thread.  It's not new, in fact I think this dates back to the beginning of the year but it's resurfaced.

 

It does not exactly reflect my views (I am not Australian) but I believe that much of the racial tension in the UK is due to anti-multicultural views not being able to be articulated. The text below is how I received it I have only tried to clean-up the slightly odd punctuation. I have not touched the capitalisation. I have a suspicion that it was first typed in red (or green)ink.

 

Subject: An Australian take on multi-culturalism

 

Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks

 A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown.  Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state, and its laws were made by parliament. "If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you," he said on national television.

 "I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia: one the Australian law and another the Islamic law, that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps, then, that's a better option," Costello said.

 Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to the other country. Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off. Basically people who don't want to be Australians, and who don't want to live by Australian values and understand them, well then, they can basically clear off," he said.

 Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques quote:

"IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave it. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians."

 "However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the 'politically correct' crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Australia."

 "However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand." "This idea of Australia being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our Sovereignty and our national identity.  As Australians, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle."

 "This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom"

 "We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language!"

 "Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right-wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture."

 "We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us."

 "If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like ‘A Fair Go,’ then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. By all means, keep your culture, but do not force it on others.

 "This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.'"

 "If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here... so accept the country YOU accepted."

[chris pp]

Of course that is from a Country with an abysmal record.

Who lived there first and what has happened to the indigenous population?

Chris

[Dog]

I have no problem with women wearing veils but I was shocked the other day watching French TV news about the elections. There was a man standing on a Non Blacks policy - I find it strange he should fall into anglo-saxon for his policy.

[SaligoBay]

He's not falling into anything.   There is no hidden Anglo-Saxon message there.

"Black" is now the normal, everyday French word for a black person.  Or for travail noir.

It is no more sinister than that.

[Cassis]

Also "les All Blacks".

[Tresco]

[quote user="SaligoBay"] I'm not saying whether I support it or not!   [/quote]

No you didn't, and I'm sorry for jumping to conclusions. [:$][kiss]

[Deimos]

[quote user="SaligoBay"]

He's not falling into anything.   There is no hidden Anglo-Saxon message there.

"Black" is now the normal, everyday French word for a black person.  Or for travail noir.

It is no more sinister than that.

[/quote]

I've heard coloured people using the word "Black" about themselves so it does not seem to be used negatively.

Ian

[Dog]

Sorry I didn't mean he was adopting an Anglo-saxon policy but that he was using the English language - will the BNP now have a No Noirs campaign?

[SaligoBay]

I doubt if they're that sophisticated, Dog! 

[Dog]

Just realised I meant the British National Party not the Bank National de Paris - that could confuse things...

[powerdesal]

Eight pages of very interesting debate, but may I ask one question of all those who have contributed:-

How many of you have lived ( not visited as tourist etc) for what length of time in a Muslim country?

Just a question, no opinion, no 'sub-text'. I am just interested.

ps. I have lived in the Islamic world for approx 22 years. (Dubai, Sharjah and Saudi Arabia)

[Bugsy]

I worked in Kuwait for quite a while, lovely people, interesting driving techniques and very hot.

[hastobe]

We did consider it.  My husband was offered a post in Riyadh.  Then a former female work colleague (who had been working at the same hospital in Riyadh) arrived back in the UK unexpectedly.  She had been arrested and had spent a couple of days in a Saudi jail before being deported - for travelling in a car with a male colleague who wasn't a family member.  We decided that we preferred our freedom and western lifestyle to the tax free income!!

In the area we live there is a very high percentage of muslims (predominantly pakistani) - in fact some schools have just a handful of white children and certain areas of the city are considered 'no go' areas for whites.  Our city was also one of those which had race riots / running street battles with police a few years ago.  A number of the recent public confrontations involving the wearing of the Burqa have also arisen in this area.

However - the OP raised the issue of the practice of muslim fundamentalism in a western country - which is not quite the same as practicing these beliefs in a traditionally muslim country.

Kathie

[YCCMB]

Haven't lived in any, but have spent extended periods working in many: Dubai, Kuwait, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Djibouti, Egypt......and OH has lived and worked in Saudi (I left him to it on that occasion!). As a woman, doing business in these countries brings its own special "issues"......[:D]

[Hoddy]

I have never visited a moslem country. I spent 26 years of my life working in a school with a high proportion of moslem pupils. Many of the girls in particular had close relationships with some women teachers because we were often their only calm grown-up connection with the western world. In this context it may be of interest to know that they loved going "home", mostly to Pakistan, because they had more freedom there than they did in the UK.

Hoddy