We are in France so we must speak French...why?

[Chief]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]No, Dago, I think you are misreading what Chief said. I believe that he means that if the idea of speaking French in France offends you (which was the OP's point, whatever she said later) then go elsewhere. Not that if you can't speak French you shouldn't go there or be thrown out. We all know how far a little French can get you if you show the right attitude.


Is it not written, "It will never get better if you scratch it"?
[/quote]

Thanks Dick, that is exactly what i meant. My primary point being that if moving to france to live, surely you should be doing so with the expectatuion that the indigenous population will choose to converse with you in their native tongue, and that it is YOU who must learn to adapt and integrate.  If you choose NOT to, thats fine also, but DON'T complain about your lot. If you choose to learn no french and move to france, no problem as long as you accept and embrace the problems that will cause you.

apologies if my initial posting was unclear.

[Miki]

Chief  that is different but wait a minute while I catch my breath from catching up with the goalposts..........[;-)] The part Dago highlighted, certainly could not be misinterpretated

I guess we might well agree with those sentiments somewhat better than before but didn't Wen also make her post clearer later on ?

[Will]

I must say that, like Dick, that's the interpretation I put on what Chief said. I rather missed the highlighted comment which could put a more extreme spin on things. Similarly, I don't think Wen was actually justifying the many who live in France and choose not to learn the language - and they do exist, and can get away with it in certain parts of France, or if they know a bilingual person or two.

With the latter in mind, although this forum seems to come out strongly in favour of the non-French at least attempting to converse in the local language, do other users share my uneasy feelings about the sort of web sites whch not only exist to provide an English-language resource for those in foreign parts, but seem to go further than that and actually encourage the setting up of English-speaking communities (or ghettoes if you like)?

[Chief]

[quote user="Chief"]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]No, Dago, I think you are misreading what Chief said. I believe that he means that if the idea of speaking French in France offends you (which was the OP's point, whatever she said later) then go elsewhere. Not that if you can't speak French you shouldn't go there or be thrown out. We all know how far a little French can get you if you show the right attitude.


Is it not written, "It will never get better if you scratch it"?
[/quote]

Thanks Dick, that is exactly what i meant. My primary point being that if moving to france to live, surely you should be doing so with the expectatuion that the indigenous population will choose to converse with you in their native tongue, and that it is YOU who must learn to adapt and integrate.  If you choose NOT to, thats fine also, but DON'T complain about your lot. If you choose to learn no french and move to france, no problem as long as you accept and embrace the problems that will cause you.

apologies if my initial posting was unclear.

[/quote]

As i said previous Miki, apologies if my initial posting was unclear. 

To elucidate a little in respect of the statement referring to not letting people emigrate unless they spoke the language of their chosen place of residence.  Perhaps we should as a global body of people step back and take a good look at the many social problems being unable to communicate in the local tongue incurs.  Much of what is often termed as racism and racist attitudes in the UK is based around and stems from peoples inability to integrate for various reasons, one of which is the lack of language proficiency, and a lack of understanding about how that is perceived by the host population.  It seems a big issue here in the UK and yet thousands of UK citizens emigrate each year, and are unable to communicate with citizens of their host nations.  I think the original posters question might better have been put by asking

"where a common language exists between two people, would it not, for clarity, particularly in a technical area (dentist, doctor, banking) be better if they conversed in the language common to them both, and not the host nations language...etc etc.....". 

If we engendered a culture whereby people 'wouldn't dream' of moving abroad without understanding even the basic day to day language needs, we would all be much better off IMHO.  Lets make not knowing the language as unacceptable as drink driving....just a muse, lets discuss...amiably :-)

 

[Cassis]

Ooh, don't expand this into the English-ghetto issue, Will!  That needs a forum all of its own!  But I agree with you. [;-)]

My view is that if you can't speak the language of the country where you reside then you are enormously disadvantaged, but as long as you don't whinge about how difficult life is when everything is in a language that you can't understand then it is not for anyone else to criticise you. 

I would say that 95% of my conversation is with my wife (yes - even after 29 years together, we still find things to talk about) and the rest with guests (of whom 60% are English speaking), commerçants and neighbours.  Given those stats, even if I did not speak French I reckon I would still get by okay, as long as my partner could deal with those occasions when it was necessary to deal with the authorities or businesses.

[Dick Smith]

[quote user="Cassis"]

My view is that if you can't speak the language of the country where you reside then you are enormously disadvantaged, but as long as you don't whinge about how difficult life is when everything is in a language that you can't understand then it is not for anyone else to criticise you. 

[/quote]

I'd accept that as a compromise position with no problems. It was the whingeing we were objecting to (or in the light of BB's post, to which we were objecting).

And is it not said "If the wind changes you will look like that forever"?

[Miki]

And is it not said "If the wind changes you will look like that forever"?

And is it also not said somewhere, that should one tell a porkie, then one will grow a nasty ulcer on the tongue ?

Or as my Mum always said, put clean vest and pants on, if the bus knocks you over, we don't want the neighbours talking about your dirty underwear...???? [8-)]

[Russethouse]

[quote user="Will "]

With the latter in mind, although this forum seems to come out strongly in favour of the non-French at least attempting to converse in the local language, do other users share my uneasy feelings about the sort of web sites which not only exist to provide an English-language resource for those in foreign parts, but seem to go further than that and actually encourage the setting up of English-speaking communities (or ghettoes if you like)?

[/quote]

And so often they are the very same people who left the UK because of the rise in immigration........[Www]

[nimportequoi]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

And so often they are the very same people who left the UK because of the rise in immigration........[Www]

[/quote]

How true -this is an summary of a converstation I had with one such ex pat (possiblly a Daily Wail reader) whom I met on arrival in France 5 years ago.

Her: I'm so pleased to have left England, it is full of immigrants now, dreadful place.

I think there ought to be a law in place that prevents people living

there unless they speak English fluently.

(A little later in the conversation)Me: How long have you lived in France? You must speak French pretty well by now

Her (very proudly): I've been here 10 years and  no I don't speak a word of French, don't need to.

[Miki]

No arguments from me about the two previous posters (Gay and Susan) comments, seen and heard it all at first hand myself......

[RumziGal]

And yet ignorance is bliss, and who would deny people a bit of happiness?  [:)]

I did meet some of these Anglais once, who waxed lyrical to me about many things French.  They told me what village their house was in, and lo and behold, I'd read about that village only the day before in the local paper.   Some yoofs had broken into a house and committed violent acts upon the two OAPs who lived there, and then looted the place and ran off.  Les Anglais, of course, knew nothing of this (and nor did I tell them!).

So who's better off?   Them in their blissful ignorance, or me with my fluent French and keeping-up-with-the-newses?

Hard to say, really!  [:)]

 

 

[Logan]

Actually, I have noticed in the last couple of years that French people are becoming more multi-lingual, particulary younger people, twenty somethings plus. The second language is of course English. I also heard recently a French politico say that English is the language of ambition. So perhaps the two things are linked. Encouraging for your average Ludite Brit. French was once the language of diplomacy, sadly long since overtaken by English. If language is a barrier to understanding then perhaps if all the peoples of the world all spoke at least one common lingo there would be less conflict. (An old aspiration I know).  However I believe at least it would help. Whatever happened to Esperanto? Personally I would not care if we all spoke Swahili if it led to a better world.

[Will]

That's very true. Read any of the many excellent recent histories of the English language, by people as diverse as Bill Bryson and Melvyn Bragg, and all say the same. French was the language of the ruling classes, the well-to-do and the law makers, English was the language of the peasantry.

Plus ça change... [;-)]

[Beryl]

I am very pleased with myself today in that I spent the whole morning in a situation that I had to see through and I did OK. Infact, I did better than OK [:P] Yes, I did get stuck a couple of time when I started a sentence and thought I don't know how to finish it, but I back tracked and phrased it differently ( simpler).  I got the ball over the net everytime to paraphrase Michel Thomas. It has done my confidence the world of good, and speaking a foreign language is as much about confidence as anything else.

Right I've finished patting myself on the back now.

[Will]

One of the scariest things I had to do was an impromptu radio interview at Caen ferry port. Because I was one of the only people waiting for the ferry in a French car, the chap, naturally enough, thought I was French. But not for long. [:D][:P]

You are right Beryl, it does wonders for the confidence. But it could so easily have gone the other way.

[nimportequoi]

[quote user="Will "]

That's very true. Read any of the many excellent recent histories of the English language, by people as diverse as Bill Bryson and Melvyn Bragg, and all say the same. French was the language of the ruling classes, the well-to-do and the law makers, English was the language of the peasantry.

Plus ça change... [;-)]

[/quote]

And I think I'm right in saying that when America won its independence it had to decide upon either English or French as the national language - if they had chosen French then how different would things be for the English now?

[RumziGal]

[quote user="Logan"]Whatever happened to Esperanto? .[/quote]

It went where it deserved to go.   Into oblivion.  

[Judith]

[quote user="Logan"]Actually, I have noticed in the last couple of years that French people are becoming more multi-lingual, particulary younger people, twenty somethings plus. The second language is of course English. [/quote]

Down in the Aude, when I have brought this up with our neighbours, the feeling is that with their geography Spanish is the second language to be learnt, rather than English.  Though I am pretty sure the advent of the web, the media (TV etc) plus commercial pressures will have a different impact, espcially further north. 

However, even though we as English speakers may find more and more French people able to speak some English, it is surely common courtesy to learn the language if possible if you are to live there.  I have often found that the English spoken by the French who can fails at about the same level as a good proportion of those English speakers trying to speak French - anything complicated or too fast and it fails.  Quid pro quo - surely?

[Miki]

[quote]

So who's better off?   Them in their blissful ignorance, or me with my fluent French and keeping-up-with-the-newses?

Hard to say, really!  [:)] [/quote]

Well you are Rumzi, cos you went out and got a big bad dog and put on extra locks, another Anglaisie neighbour never comprended and she was number two who wuz robbed in the village. (Am I the only one who sees a fable in there somewhere..............no ?  OK just me then [:)] )

Being in suspended animacy is great, until it all comes crashing down around the lugs, when the people translating for you go on holiday or worse, go home permanent [:)]

 

 

[Logan]

Ah Miki, so you also are fluent in Swahili. [:D]

[Blitzen]

[quote user="Susan"][quote user="Will "]

That's very true. Read any of the many excellent recent histories of the English language, by people as diverse as Bill Bryson and Melvyn Bragg, and all say the same. French was the language of the ruling classes, the well-to-do and the law makers, English was the language of the peasantry.

Plus ça change... [;-)]

[/quote]

And I think I'm right in saying that when America won its independence it had to decide upon either English or French as the national language - if they had chosen French then how different would things be for the English now?

[/quote]

The way I heard this one was that it was a choice between English and German!?[8-)]

[WJT]

Oh dear, now that really would have been scary [:D]!

[Clair]

[quote user="Blitzen"]The way I heard this one was that it was a choice between English and German!?[8-)][/quote]

I have a feel for English but have no ear nor feel for German. I learnt more German during a 10-day hitch-hiking trip to Hamburg than after 4 years of study when I could barely string a sentence together...

[Blitzen]

You know you've cracked German when you can put the right verb at the end of the sentence someone is saying before they do!!! [:P]

[Miki]

[quote user="Logan"]Ah Miki, so you also are fluent in Swahili. [:D][/quote]

Oh yes plus another strange language known only to my wife, she calls it me talking b******s and I thought I spoke Catalan until last year and until the peeps spoke back I was doing well good.......(that's new speak I believe [:)] )