We are in France so we must speak French...why?

[KathyC]

[quote user="Blitzen"][quote user="KathyC"]

Unfortunately there was a longish period when English grammar wasn't taught in schools. That's meant that there are many young (and not so young) teachers who don't have the subject knowledge to pass on. Although there are courses and books available to help them aquire this knowledge, I've come across many who don't seem really committed to the teaching of grammar, having been taught during their formative years that it was really not important.

[/quote]
Absolutely right, it started in the 1970's along with the integrated day.  However, grammar has to be taught nowadays as it's a big part of the Literacy strategy.  I'm teaching time and causal connectives, along with subordinate and main clauses to Y5 next week.  We seem to have gone from none to overkill!
[/quote]

I'd put it earlier than that. I can remember having classes on sentence analysis (which I later learnt was called parsing) when I started grammar school in the early 60s. We stopped doing it somewhere around the third year ( I was very disappointed; I loved it) and it certainly wasn't tested when I sat "O" levels in 1967. I assume that's when it went off the syllabus in our area. (London Exam Board)

[Cassis]

Bring back Latin, I say.

[Blitzen]

[quote user="Cassis"]Bring back Latin, I say.

[/quote]

Now there's a thought!!![:P]

[mint]

Ah, Latin, dream on!  When I was doing PGCE and indeed TESOL later, I never met anyone on my course who knew what a gerund was!  And I speak as one whose first language is NOT English!

[Beryl]

Didn't know whether to PM or post here [8-)]

I agree Miki that you did not say Domy's post was racist, I just came to that conclusion reading between the lines of your post , which is always a dangerous thing to do. So we hopefully are all 'sweet' as they say.[:)] I did not intend to cast any aspersions at Wen either.

Back to the topic as it is now.

Learning a second language ( indeed anything) can never be classed as a waste of time.However, teaching French and German in UK schools despite those countries being our almost nearest neighbours and in the EEC too,seems to me to be outdated in today's world.

I believe that France is under a bigger threat from Americana than it is from a couple of thousand Brits not speaking the lingo. The elderly and not so elderly retired without offsping in France will eventually fade away and leave little trace of having been here. Those with children, may learn to speak a lot or a bit and always retain their Britishness however their children will, to all intents and purposes become French . Unless these families go back to Britain or the US etc, there is every probability that the children will marry French people and stay in France. 

[Cassis]

[quote user="sweet 17"]Ah, Latin, dream on!  When I was doing PGCE and indeed TESOL later, I never met anyone on my course who knew what a gerund was!  And I speak as one whose first language is NOT English![/quote]

You say gerund, I say gerundive ...

Is working here, working for you?

[mint]

Cassis

RECEIVING you loud and clear, thanks!  Regards

[Just Katie]

Back to accents, I have often been mistaken for a german when I speak (attempt to speak) french.[blink]

[Miki]

Well Katie, how bad is it then, when once in the sarf, I was speaking for the first time to a fonctionaire, so she had no details on me, said whereabout was I from in  Londres [8-)] Kids looked up at me and said how did she know Dad.........Wasn't going to tell two kids that it was my accent, especially as they thought Dad could parlee Francay like a native. They were soon to find out, after just a few months at school, that Dad was a fraud [:(]

Beryl, sweet as, my dear [:)]

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Just Katie "]Back to accents, I have often been mistaken for a german when I speak (attempt to speak) french.[blink][/quote]

 

Katie, are you sure it's not another facial hair problem like SB's????

[Renaud]

"there is a cachet in some circles attached to the ability to communicate in welsh.  also, some government posts specify ability to communicate in welsh." says Sweet Seventeen.

I aplaud you Sweet Seventeen for being able to speak Welsh as someone not born there - but if the resaon stated above is the the best reason that you can come up with for making children learn Welsh - I stand by my crudely expressed opinion.

With my mother born in Wales of Irish parents (who had the occasional Scottish and Huegonot ancestor), my father having three French grandparents and one of my Irish grandparent was born abord a boat in the Bay of Naples - and having been born in Belfast myself, I have nothing but love for all the countries in the six nations championship.

But forcing children to learn nearly defunct rural languages that are on the academic life-support system to satisfy the political sensitivities of nonentities when they could be learning a useful modern european language is beyond the pale.

[TWINKLE]

[quote user="Just Katie "]Back to accents, I have often been mistaken for a german when I speak (attempt to speak) french.[blink][/quote]

She is also often mistaken for the French bird in the mac and the beret in 'Allo,' Allo!  The one who always says "I will say this only once" but she ends up having to say it 20 times before anyone understands what the hell she's banging on about[:D]

[Just Katie]

No Betty, it is nothing to do with the facial hair.  I think it is more to do with the tight vowelled lilt.

Renaud your referral to the welsh language as being "a nearly defunct rural language" is soooo 1970's.  This is not the case today as there has been a huge revival in the language since the 70's. You say it is beyond the pale that they are learned instead of a useful modern european language.  Many parents in Wales are willing to educate their children in full time welsh speaking schools where the welsh language resides above english.  Incidentally that would not be my choice but it is the choice for many.

[Beryl]

Well that's better than me, I sound like Officer Crabtree[:$]

[Just Katie]

[quote user="TWINKLE"]

[quote user="Just Katie "]Back to accents, I have often been mistaken for a german when I speak (attempt to speak) french.[blink][/quote]

She is also often mistaken for the French bird in the mac and the beret in 'Allo,' Allo!  The one who always says "I will say this only once" but she ends up having to say it 20 times before anyone understands what the hell she's banging on about[:D]

[/quote]

Your husband told me I was good.[blink]

[mint]

renaud

i couldn't agree with you more.  personally, i do consider a lot of these people who lay down the law as nonentities.  it's all very well making children learn defunct languages instead of languages which are really alive and active.  but and it's a big BUT, i am not the bureaucrat responsible and i would certainly NOT make my own children do something so needless!

[TWINKLE]

Yes JK he thinks you are good -  but only after a large dousing of TicoTico[:-))]

[TWINKLE]

[quote user="sweet 17"]

 it's all very well making children learn defunct languages instead of languages which are really alive and active.  but and it's a big BUT, i am not the bureaucrat responsible and i would certainly NOT make my own children do something so needless!

[/quote]

My 7 year old said to me "We are in France so why must I speak English?" 

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Renaud"]Jon Said "If children are to learn language in the context of culture, perhaps learning Welsh or Gaelic (for those who don't already have one of these as a native language) would be a better idea for British school children. These languages could certainly benefit from an elevated profile."

Sorry to disagree. [/quote]

You go right ahead and disagree! This is meant to be a debate.

For the majority of children learning modern European languages at school in the UK (let's pick a figure - 95%?) I would contend that the exercise is a complete waste of both their time and the resources of the education system. They might gain a GCSE or whatever, but they will never again speak the language they have learned, never again read a newspaper in that language and gain little or no appreciation of the culture behind that language.

So why bother?

The goal of educating children to the extent of being bilingual is an admirable one, but is hardly practical. I'll concede that the Dutch and others might manage it, but one has to take account of the degree to which their culture is influenced by English: it is on the radio, and in the cinema, English language films are normally subtitled in Dutch, not dubbed (too expensive). Dutch children could easily hear English in the home every day, let alone what they get at school. The language is relavent to them. British children might hear French / Spanish / whatever twice a week for an hour a time in the classroom and never outside. To them it is not relavent.

The logic behind my suggestion that Welsh or Gaelic might be a better choice is, I think, not entirely half-arsed. It would give children an awareness of the history and culture of Britain that learning a spurious foreign language would not.

[Dick Smith]

Renaud - Sweet 17 - I had a long conversation with a student some years ago who was made to taught Welsh by his father, a local head teacher. He resented it hugely, because he saw it as just a mark or social statement about Welshness and ultimately separation (I'm sure we all have stories of Welsh speakers moving into Welsh when they realise that people around them are English - I know I do), which comes from insecurity. It is, as you say, a language on a life support system - and a very expensive one, at that. Healthy languages don't need subsidies.

But Welsh is not promoted by 'bureaucrats' (whatever they are), it is organisations like the Welsh Nationalists and the Welsh Language Society who have lobbied for official support for years.

[mint]

Twinkle

I think your children may well have a point.  Would be a shame though, wouldn't it if they couldn't speak English?  After all there is so much in the way of literature that they would miss out on, don't you think?

Dick, I don't quite know what to say.  Welsh is massively expensive and though, grammatically, it is not actually a very difficult language, I do have some sympathy with people who think it needs subsidy in order for the Welsh people to learn and use it.  The "language of heaven" they call it and I do have a sneaking admiration for people who go against all the odds.  I suppose it's my tendency to side with the underdog.  At the end of the day, I think it's OK if people want to learn a language for the sake of learning it and for no other reason (like the chap who wants to climb Everest, because it's there)!  However, you would think that there are many more calls on public funds than to subsidise a language that the majority of the population have no use for and have no particular reason to learn?

[TWINKLE]

[quote user="Jon"][quote user="Renaud"]Jon Said "If children are to learn language in the context of culture, perhaps learning Welsh or Gaelic (for those who don't already have one of these as a native language) would be a better idea for British school children. These languages could certainly benefit from an elevated profile." Sorry to disagree. [/quote]

You go right ahead and disagree! This is meant to be a debate.

For the majority of children learning modern European languages at school in the UK (let's pick a figure - 95%?) I would contend that the exercise is a complete waste of both their time and the resources of the education system. They might gain a GCSE or whatever, but they will never again speak the language they have learned, never again read a newspaper in that language and gain little or no appreciation of the culture behind that language.

So why bother?


[/quote]

Yes Jon! 

Great idea - don't tell them about France so then they'll have to find somewhere else to retire to[:-))][:D][:P]  I'm joking - honest.

[cooperlola]

Sounds great in theory, Twinks, but since when has knowing nothing about the country or its language prevented people from retiring here anyway?  "A Place in the Sun" can be guaranteed to tell them all they need to know.[:D]

[Dick Smith]

I'm a language realist - they change over time, and some are lost. It has happened many times, and I understand that for speakers of that language it is very upsetting, but in the end it happens. I'm not sure that keeping a language alive on a ventilator is a good use of public funds.

I'm also not convinced that all people are capable of learning a second language after a certain age (about 7) and relatively few really need one. That said, I enjoy reading and speaking French, quoting dog-Latin and so on, and wouldn't take the opportunity away from anyone who wanted to engage at whatever level they are comfortable with.

[TWINKLE]

[quote user="sweet 17"]

  Would be a shame though, wouldn't it if they couldn't speak English?  After all there is so much in the way of literature that they would miss out on, don't you think?

[/quote]

Definately! 

Plus she wouldn't be able to converse with her grandparents, aunties, uncles & cousins - that really would be a shame.  She'll also be more receptive to learning another language like Spanish which will give her another string to her bow when she decides what she'd like to do when she leaves school