Are There Too Many English In Our Hamlet !

[Logan]

The European project or European Community was originally a brave political idea and designed principally to bring the peoples of Europe closer together and prevent another European war. That project is ongoing, active, alive and still a good idea despite all it's predictable problems. It's also has a long term vision which subsequent generations will evolve. Historical conflicts between close European neighbours of course still remain a block to progress in the minds of some. I believe such attitudes will not prevent the project moving forward which I believe now is unstoppable. Petty arguments about English, French, German, Irish moving to each others countries and living there belong in a past era when their tanks were on our lawns. Heavens, lets all try and move on a bit. Cultural diversity is everywhere if you look for it.

[Tag]

Yet after 50 years of Europe there are more apparently Fascist parties than ever and they get votes. In some towns they even control power.

As to welcoming strangers (I use the word advisedly), surely it is only by controlling numbers that harmony can be achieved and by encouraging integration and even some assimilation. The British recipe of multiculturalism has failed so other recipes need to be tried.

Thus in some communes it might be reasonable to look at controlling the numbers of incomers or second homes, especially where locals are being chased out by high property prices (eg the Lake District), or even reserving some homes for locals at prices they can afford. Come to think of it, hasnt it been tried somewhere in Brittany.

[Tag]

Rumzigal, the problem is I am not sure what I am anymore. Certainly not Brit I'm sure. I've been an expat so long that it is a way of life.

[Dick Smith]

I am. And we represent 66% of the population of our hamlet when Claude is on his own, but when his sister and nephews come down from Paris we are only 33%. We occupy 33% of the houses (50% of the habitable ones) and own none of the cows. I am on good terms with all of our neighbour, and 66% of his visitors (the younger nephew is a bit of a moody teenager).

You can't make rules about this sort of thing - it requires a little more subtlety, like most human-relationship things.

[RumziGal]

Yes, there is a worrying rise in extreme right support.   And yes, they are in power in some places.   But they're NOT in power in a larger number of places.  

True, the Front National got what, 10% of the French vote?   But they didn't get the other 90%.

Sarko wants to throw out homeless sans-papiers, but there's plenty of public outcry against that.

So for the moment all is not lost.   France is a huge country, there's plenty room for lots more, I think, and the more variety the better.   The existence of tension is, I feel, a kipper rouge.  There will always be tension between human tribes, even if it's only over which end of the egg they open.

If you're suggesting quotas (presumably for France?) what kind of basis would you do it on?   Even if you ban non-French, you'd still have those nasty Parisians buying holiday homes!   Or do you just ban holiday homes altogether?

Give us a business plan!  [:D]

[Tag]

Not altogether, but there may be a case for limiting the numbers in certain very sought after places as they chase out local people. This is not true of all locations though. Take some small villages in Charente Maritime. They are ghost towns outside the holiday season.

[Renaud]

Tag "Take some small villages in Charente Maritime. They are ghost towns outside the holiday season".

Have you seen them in the holiday season? Not that different unless they are near the coast.

[Patf]

There is another element which comes into the argument when referring to british people as immigrants, and probably the dutch too. That is that most of us are wealthier than the average local. And of course this breeds envy and resentment. Pat.

[Tag]

What comes out of this thread is that it is worth finding out how many incomers there are in an area before moving there. How to escape if there is an influx later is another matter.

[TreizeVents]

[quote user="RumziGal"]

There are three basic options to dealing with large numbers of incomers:

1. Accept them as they are and make the most of it.  Every culture has its potential dark side.  You see drunkenness in Brits, Viscount de Villiers is more worried about the perceived threat of Islamisation from North Africans, Dieudonné sees goodness-knows-what danger from Jews.  

2. Send them back where they came from.

3. Don't let them in in the first place.

[/quote]

Actually there are even more options than that.  First, you can train up the immigrants to be "like the natives", language, behaviour, history, looks etc.  This is the method currently favoured by the French.  It won't work very well, and they don't really take it seriously (where are the serious, more than once a week,  free French language and history classes?), but its challenging and not one of your three.  Another is that the locals can move in the direction of the immigrants, that is the originals can become a bit more like the immmigrants, learn from them and change.  No one likes this one, including my neighbours, who want to reamin just as they are.  A third is that you can make it impossible, illegal or very difficult for the orginal inhabitants to treat the incomers badly.  So I could get all my neighbours busted who took weeks to say bonjour or worse.  Actually some of them avoid saying it now, five years later.  This would require the locals to learn that immigrants are not all bad, sometimes even interesting.  A fourth is that you can restirct the incomers to certain areas, so they can live together with their own kind and the originals can know that if they go to that area, they are in foreign territory.  This happens almost automatically with most immigratns anyway, for a period of time.   I bet there are even more that I didn't think of.

Your option 2 and 3 are not possible, never happen.  Most European countries NEED immigrants and they are beginning to undersatnd that.  Even ordinary folks. Various kinds of immigrants for various reasons.  And there is no way 3 will ever happen.  Although there is more and more interest in the "wall" business, the futile attempt to build a wall totally around a country to stop immigrants from entering.  Hah!

[Blanche Neige]

"What comes out of this thread is that it is worth finding out how many incomers there are in an area before moving there.  "

When house hunting you could always look through the local phone book and see how many foreign names are listed, of course there will always be some who are on the list Rouge[8-|]

How to escape if there is an influx later is another matter.

Quite simple really, ......................just move house![:)]

[Blanche Neige]

Renaud said

"It is all a question of balance. Anybody who finds that 50% of their hamlet / village / town bought by incomers are bound to feel uncomfortable especially if the incomers do not speak their language well. Part of the problem is that the young people have been migrating to the towns and cities for some time as the economy has changed away from the land. ..........................................................................

..........................Therefore the incomers are not exactly depriving the young of homes in the rural areas; they are helping halt the decline of those villages. "

 

I'll second that.

Just to add to the discussion, the ""wealthy incomers" renovating old properties will spend money locally and employ the local artisans.[8-|]

[TreizeVents]

[quote user="Patf"]There is another element which comes into the argument when referring to british people as immigrants, and probably the dutch too. That is that most of us are wealthier than the average local. And of course this breeds envy and resentment. Pat.[/quote]

I don't see the problem with this "element", or even what's new.  As I understand immigration patterns throughout the world, there are always a few comfortable immigrants who leave their homeland and go to another.  This is qutie normal.  For example, the Canadians harvested loads of HongKong Chinese, just before the other Chinese took over.  The Canadians had conditions for immigration and one was that you had loads of money.  Don't quite know why you only apply this to the Dutch and the Brits.  Maybe you can explain.  Many of the Germans, Danes, Belgians are not doing that badly.  Although some of them are just working people.  I know quite a few Americans in Montpellier who are working people.  Not that well off, although some are pretty comfy. 

I do agree with you that the gap between the rich and the poor, anywhere on earth,  will eventually breed envy, resentment, anger, and hopefully, some day, a bit of redistribution. [;-)]

[RumziGal]

[quote user="Patf"]There is another element which comes into the argument when referring to british people as immigrants, and probably the dutch too. That is that most of us are wealthier than the average local. And of course this breeds envy and resentment. Pat.[/quote]

That's true.  And North Africans are generally less well off, and that breeds another kind of resentment. 

What can you do?  [:)]

[RumziGal]

[quote user="TreizeVents"][quote user="RumziGal"]

There are three basic options to dealing with large numbers of incomers:

1. Accept them as they are and make the most of it.  Every culture has its potential dark side.  You see drunkenness in Brits, Viscount de Villiers is more worried about the perceived threat of Islamisation from North Africans, Dieudonné sees goodness-knows-what danger from Jews.  

2. Send them back where they came from.

3. Don't let them in in the first place.

[/quote]

Actually there are even more options than that.[/quote]

Of course.  The word "basic" was an indication that I was generalising.   All that you say is lumped into a version of option 1.    If you're an intellectually lazy good-for-nothing like me, anyway.  [:)] 

[quote user="TreizeVents"]
Your option 2 and 3 are not possible, never happen.  [/quote]

I know.  Which is why I think the business of "too many incomers" is kind of a non-starter, although we seem to have got a lot of mileage out of it nonetheless!  [:)]

But some people do believe they are the way to go.  You mentioned a wall - as you know, the US is starting to build one in Iraq.   Le Pen would like to see repatriation.   Sharko has already shown his teeth to the sans-papiers. 

Actually, I don't think this discussion is really about immigration in general, is it?   The title is clearly only about the English in France, so I guess I/we are off topic.    

   

 

[TreizeVents]

[quote user="Val_2"]

Its time for these type of threads to cease. We, all of us with an interest in France albeit for residency or holiday visits have NOT been forced to come here so what does it matter who your neighbours are.The intelligent french know and understand this and can see further than the,in many cases, SOME low educated and bigotted locals who have nothing better in their lives than to ignore the incomers or make life difficult in some cases. The only thing that really upsets me are those who try to con their fellow countrymen or who will not conform and pay their dues thus stealing income from those that do.

[/quote]

Hi Val,

It matters to me a lot who my neighbours are and how they act in relation to me, and also in relation to each other.  The house I had in Britain before this, I had great neighbours.  This house in France, I don't.  It makes a difference to how I live and how I see life in a day to day way.  But unless you choose "no neighbours",  you can't pick them really.  You just live with it.

Your comment about how "threads like this should stop" is incomprehensible to me.  I tried to figure out what you meant and I just couldn't.   What kind of thread is "this"?  And why should it stop?  And I don't actually grasp the comment about fellow countrymen who will not conform, and steal income from those that do.  Can you give an example?  I am sure you are talking about something quite real, I just don'tknow what it is.

[Chief]

[quote user="Tag"]Not altogether, but there may be a case for limiting the numbers in certain very sought after places as they chase out local people. This is not true of all locations though. Take some small villages in Charente Maritime. They are ghost towns outside the holiday season.[/quote]

The problem here lies with deciding who gets to sell their home to an apparently affluent foreigner, and who has to settle for selling to an apparently poorer national perhaps for much less money than their fellow countryman. Money pushes prices up, all sellers of whatever nationality like that, even those who whine about incomers!!  Many prices that i have seen appear very inflated and blatantly aimed at foreign buyers who are perceived as having more to spend.

[TreizeVents]

Hi Chief,

I think you have pinpointed one of the big problems.  How can there be rules so that money is not the only criteria for buying and selling?  Buying and selling anything.   And how can prices be regulated so that they don't go up and up?  On anything.  I can think of no one to do that except elected local or national goverments.   Local governments or national governments make price regulations.  They have also forbidden the sale of certain things, like slaves or in some cases automatic weapons.  It has happened before and still happens with some commodities.  They just forbid prices to go up on housing.   There are various ingenious schemes that can be thought up by anyone who knows that market, but the problem is that ordinary people have to be convinced there is some value other than money, and some calculation other than individual accumulation.  Values like solidarity and equality come to mind.  These days, individualism and getting loadsa money seem to be on top.  People and their governments must recognise that insance housing prices do no one any good, except people who like money.  I have friends who live in London, normal folks, with normal houses.  And they are rich.  Just because they live in London.  This is market madness.  Its not so hard to imagine regulations.  Best to do it nationally, but it can start locally.  For example, how can traffic problems in big cities be solved.  Keep the cars out.  It can be done, but you need to have good public transport.  How to regulate prices?  You just forbid stupid prices.  Don't allow them.  And make sure everyone has a house to live in, even if it is not their ideal house.  Plus spend a bit of time pointing out to people what the advantages of controlling the market are.

We sometimes have to remember that Parisians (and no doubt a few Lyonnais, etc) are very much responsible for this house price problem and for the empty hameaux problem.  It not entirely foreigners.  It is, essentially richer people.  People who can buy whatever they want.  The problem at the base of all this is the distribution of wealth.  The more it is unequal, the more the richer people will trample on the poorer.  That is quite normal, to be expected.  In countries where the wealth is more equitalbe, I should think the prices are not qutie so mad.  But I would have to do serious research to find that out.

[Renaud]

Tag, Were you quoting from Chesil Beach by Ian McEwan when you posted: “Was near the Chesil, hard by Portland when they hit. Course, our fire burned well that nite. She was carryin' brandy me lads. Etc..”?

 If so it will go on my holiday reading list and probably off that of my wife.

[Logan]

You cannot control the free market. Or as one famous lady once said, “If you try and buck the market then the market will buck you”. The market economy is the life blood of the world and you tinker with it at your peril. It’s been tried before and always with disastrous results. To advance yourself materially and provide some financial security you need the market. Without the market we all stagnate. The market rewards those in society who are prepared in their lives to make personal effort and take risks. If you regulate markets you remove individual incentive, inventive creativity and socio- economic progress. I agree that some negative aspects of the market should have some light controls. However I believe that in the end the market regulates itself through simple supply and demand.

The rising housing market provides ordinary working people with a future and an opportunity for life enhancement beyond that of their ancestors. In life there will always be winners and losers. The idea that governments should constantly meddle in the free market and in direct consequence our lives, for me is unacceptable and wrong.  

 

[WJT]

Oops Logan, there you go with that right wing talk that some people here don't like. [;-)]  Well said couldn't agree more.

According to this on Yahoo, perhaps the UK housing market making people rich will not be ending anytime soon.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pressass/20070426/tuk-rise-in-property-tycoons-predicted-6323e80.html

 

I know the statement was made on another thread but, I certainly don't view this forum in the slightest as right wing, I see it as generally very leftist ( I am a capitalist centrist [:D]). I believe there are a few here that would and have admitted to being very hard left, that is something you certainly don't see in the norm but appears to be quite normal here. [blink]

[Tag]

Renaud, I'm sorry to say that my lines about Chesil Bank were all my own, but I think the book is outstanding.

Tim

[Tag]

Yes, but, as in UK, insufficient provision is being made for youngsters to get on the ladder.  Here in the Vendee wages are generally low ,though at least people are employed, and youngsters cannot afford to buy, even the little ticky tacky boxes so loved by the developers. I don't accept that a 'have' and 'have not' situation is reasonable. And yes I know about working hard and doing overtime, but that would be difficult in France where overtime and the 35 hour week are inhibiting earning power. And I am no leftist, believe me.

[Logan]

I don't accept that a 'have' and 'have not' situation is reasonable.

Please explain how you would create incentive without that rational? People need motivation to get them out of bed in the morning.

[Guest]

[quote user="Gastines"]A Notaire advised us that during the 12 weeks it normally takes a sale to go through, part of his task is to advise the Maire that the house is being sold and the price. I believe the Maire can buy the property for the commune at the market price.[/quote]

I believe this applies only to agricultural land, or houses surrounded by it.