The Lisbon Treaty.

[Logan]

I believe the Irish voted NO to Lisbon because they realised that smaller states such as theirs would be shunted off to the sidelines of the EU decision making process. They would lose the right to appoint an Irish Commissioner and more qualified majority voting would prevent them blocking issues which would legally change matters they hold dear. I do not subscribe to the patronising view of the EU Commission that the Irish had not understood the issues of Lisbon. They understood them all too well that's why they said No. 

The last time unification in Europe was attempted by force or at least pursuasion with kidology, it was done by a certain A. Hitler.  We live perhaps in more suttle and enlightened times. However the aim is still that of European unification and a super state controlled by unelected former politicans who have largely failed to make an impact in their own state. The current Trade Commissioner Peter Mandleson being just one example. 

My opposition to EU federalisim has nothing to do with "being a little Englander" which was the opinion of a TF poster.  Actually I have lived in France for well over 26 years and am no 'Petit Anglais.'.. I believe that France and Britain should retain their individual sovereignty with the power of their own elected governments to decide the future direction of their own country.

[powerdesal]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20080620/tpl-uk-eu-britain-treaty-43a8d4f.html

Does this throw a new light on the subject?. Can the UK ratification even be reversed?

HRH has not done her people a good service on this issue.IMO.

[Gluestick]

Now I really will put the cat amongst the pigeons here!

The nonsense about pretending that HM The Queen's Royal Assent actually means anything perpetuates the myth about the whole parliamentary process.

What is urgently needed in the UK IMHO is a total and holistic rethink.

It is wrong, for example, that the appointment of judges and senior members of the whole non-governmental system of jurisprudence is now political: as it is nonsense that the government in power packs the Lords with its carefully chosens and selected politicians.

Amongst many other fundamental basics of a modern nation state we need a Republic: Proportional Representation; and the mechanism whereby the electors can interfere in in what has become a jolly good game for otherwise unemployable lightweights to take the P out of the voters, ignore public desire and volition and not only be paid an excellent salary and a wonderful to die for pension, but to then also greedily claim undeserved and unnecessary expenses, as well as having well paid jobs on the side which bias the politician to favour their private sector task master!

The matter over the Lisbon Treaty and the election by a few Labour Party politicians of Gordon Brown as premiere with no control allowed by the electorate, demonstrate this process has now gone too far.

In my political-Economics writings many years ago, I came up with the term "Government Interference Factor" of GIF © PDD(R)LTD

If one considers, Government now sticks its oar into perhaps 95% of everything to do with our lives: no wonder taxes are so very high.

Years ago it was perhaps 10% and taxes were aligned in rough accordance.

Perhaps it is high time the UK taxpaying voter echoed the American colonists: No Taxation Without Representation!

At present, we have, to abuse Lincoln's Gettsyburg Address:

Government of the People: by the Government; for the Good of the Government!

[Logan]

It's not HRH job to intervene in government business. She is a constitutional monarch, a figure head if you like. Nothing more.

I think the Judge was simply asserting the courts precedence until judgement is delivered. Unfortunately I expect the case to fail.

[Gluestick]

Interesting that Charles Clark, the ex Home Secretary, entered into a spirited debate with Jacky Smith the current Home Secretary on the dire problems with the 42 day detention legislation, pointing out how the proposed amendments were flawed, unecessary and valueless.

And then assured her he would in favour of the Government!

Which just goes to prove how our current system, of so-called "Democracy" is a joke.

 

[powerdesal]

Whats the answer GS, popular uprising, ie revolution?  Mass civil disobedience? Roll over and accept the status quo? Military coup? Wait till a general election and achieve........?

[Gluestick]

Well Steve, my own projection and forecast quite a few years ago now was that by 2010, the UK would have become a sort of semi-Fascist banana republic in Europe and it's not too far away, I fear.

Just consider, we now have more CCTV than any other state in the world. We have more legal intrusions and snooping than even states run by dictators!

Those of us who are pretty immersed in ICT expressed our serious concerns when the RIP Act was passed quite a few years ago now.

I fear the future will include some form of revolution, when the people wrest back power from the out-of-control meglomaniacs who have siezed ever-increasing power, insidiously and surreptitiously as the public have become fatigued with politics and governments and inured to what has been going on and perhaps most critically of all, have fallen prey to the unholy duopoly of big businesses effectively controlling the media - and thus what passes as public knowledge and opinion -  and also perhaps even worse, controlling politicians by funding, favours and the process whereby politicians have personally enriched themselves through "Public Service", as they masquerade tirless efforts for the majority, whereas in truth they serve their financial taskmasters.

Unfortunately the enemy of any real progress in redressing the balance of economic, social and infrastructure decay is the Quinquenial Act, which demands a general election at least once every five years.

Thus a genuinely reformist party, which set out its stall with far ranging changes and real and valuable and essential objectives which would inevitably engage the population in short term pain for long term gain would be prevented from following through on any robust initiatives, since within five years ( far too little time to, for example, redress the balance in education, as the cycle time exceeds 20 years) an opposition party of self-interested charlatans would send out their siren call of hollow promises and thus seduce the gullible majority.

So my conclusion has to be that eventually, as the great divide between haves and have nots accelerates, once the country has returned to the draconian excesses of mid-Victorian England, then the majority may well rebel in an active and perhaps violently physical manner.

 

[Logan]

I agree with Gluesticks pessimistic view. The causes at least but not so much the eventual effects. Most ordinary folk don't give a tinker cuss for politics or their practioners. What they do care about is their incomes and standard of living. Keep that in place and revolution is a long way off. The petty squabbles of The Lisbon Treaty do not really interest them unless perhaps they see minorities being abused or disinfranchised.

Further more I think most people would agree and accept that politicans are self serving spinless creeps, in it for the self importance, cudos and back handers. People of real integrity usually do something more constructive with their lives.

Unfortunately countries need government to process the system. Unless they do something that really gets up the public nose, most of us are happy to ignore them whilst they get on with it. Complacency abounds.

I believe that The Lisbon Treaty is potentially one of those moments. If it is handled badly the backlash might be considerable. They will only have themselves to blame when we roast the soles of their feet.

[mint]

Can we roast the soles of their feet anyway?  Sounds like quite an interesting thing to do whilst the barbeque is already out of its wraps and primed to go.

[Gluestick]

[quote]What they do care about is their incomes and standard of living. Keep that in place and revolution is a long way off. [/quote]

As the bard might say, Logan, Aye; there's the rub!

Predicating NuLab's "Economic Miracle" on insane house price rises and the majority of the balance on the importing, warehousing, logistics and multiple retailing of Asian goods mainly sold on unsecured consumer credit is now at an end.

As American analysts might say, it's a one trick pony.

Maintaining most people's current standard of income let alone creating advance is now the thorny question!

As well, of course, of consistently increasing taxation and ever expanding PSBR, when gross taxation revenues are now falling rapidly and will accelerate the downwards trend, is a smoke and mirrors fiscal balancing act impossible to perpetuate.

The great unwashed have been kept in docility by constant doses of a number of economically based soporifics and mental analgesics.

Problem now is the political pharmacy shelves are bare and there is no spare cash to re-stock!

Interestingly, here is part of what I wrote, wearing my professional hat back in January 2003...............

Quote:

.....................on Britain's economy only touches the surface (European Business, Dec. 16). Depending on whom one believes, around 60% of present British gross domestic product is comprised of retailing--mainly of imported goods. The balance of trade deficit is huge and growing, month to month. The Bank of England is afraid to damp down out-of-control consumer borrowing by hiking interest rates since this would certainly cause the overheated residential-property market to implode.

Because the Confederation of British Industry and their ilk represent large corporations, they like low interest rates. Yet the spread between base rate and effective borrowing rate has never been greater for small and midsize enterprises, which create nearly 50% of both GDP and employment. The manufacturers screaming to join the EU are mainly foreign-owned and invariably "screwdriver" assembly plants, with the majority of value added abroad. It is high time that the myth of The Great British Economy is seen in its true light: spin without substance.

[powerdesal]

Its a serious subject, but just for a light hearted moment.......

How about we form a shadow govt, GS can be chancellor of the exchequer, Sweet can be Home Secretary, I will be Minister of Defence, Logan ??????.

Any more nominations?

[Logan]

Wales and Scotland would have their independence in my ideal constitution and the monarchy removed with an elected President. An enlarged EU of sovereign democratic states trading without barriers but with no political or social integration. A slimmed down Commission with the abolition of the European Parliament. I mean what's it for anyway?

As for me personally, being in government, it would be the very last thing I would consider. [+o(]

[Gluestick]

And to add to Logan's Wish List:

Elected PM as well as President of the UK.

Wholly elected upper house.

Repeal the Parliament Act.

Judiciary and Attorney General at al appointed by non-political means.

Local judges appointed in equal number to ex barristers and solicitors to bring basic human feeling and the application of real world experience and to stop the whole process of jurisprudence from being the game for insiders it currently is.

A written Bill of Rights and British Constitution, as Blair promised.

Proportional Representation.

Hugely increased autonomy for local councils and county councils and elected mayors in all larger towns and cities, with accountability flowing through the whole and to break the current political games being played and get on with the process of managing the local communities effectively and pragmatically.

Total reform of taxation.

Savage the number of civil servants to less than 50% of current headcount.

Abolish QUANGOS.

Insist that MPs are present for the whole of any debate they wish to vote on.

Ban MPs from other paid work.

Task parliament and the apparatus of the state with a narrow focus objective on matters that can only be instituted and managed centrally, such as defence, health service etc.

Savage budget for overseas aid and only provide aid on a "Hard" basis with matched local funding.

Etc........................

 

[Iceni]

Most ordinary folk don't give a tinker cuss for politics or their practioners. What they do care about is their incomes and standard of living.

Spot on, what else is there ?

The petty squabbles of The Lisbon Treaty do not really interest them unless perhaps they see minorities being abused or disinfranchised.

Don't agree unless I am in the minority being abused. Disenfranchisement does not bother me, I don't vote anyway. 

I believe that The Lisbon Treaty is potentially one of those moments. If it is handled badly the backlash might be considerable. They will only have themselves to blame when we roast the soles of their feet.

The great unwashed are not capable of understanding an EU Constitution, Lisbon Treaty or whatever you call it this week. (A bit like Windscale really, when something gets a bad press, change the name.)  IMHO the only way to get a "yes" vote in the UK is to amend the question to "Do you want to leave the EU ?"

But enough of this nonsense, let's get back to something important - enjoying the sunshine while it lasts.

John

[Clarkkent]

In addition to Gluestick's and Logan's wish lists:

The abolition of high-level whipping in Parliament with parties making recommendations not instructing MPs about their voting behaviour.

The introduction of electronic voting by MPs instead of the ludicrous shuffle through the lobbies.

An independent Parliamentary Commission which would minutely scrutinise the wording of Bills to ensure that the Bills achieved what their promotors desired, rather than leaving unclear matters to subsequent judicial interpretation.

A ban on knee-jerk reaction legislation.

A Companies Act which made the primary responsibility of company directors the long-term interests of their conpany's stakeholders and not the short-term interests of their shareholders.

[Logan]

Gluestick is a great visionary. With those changes he suggests in place and other posters, particulary the economic measures what a difference we all would make. Yet nothing gets done by the dullards currently in place in most European states.

Following on from the previous poster Inceni. Perhaps the truth is that the quality of leaders reflect the visions of the people. If the people could not give a stuff then why should they.

 

[Gluestick]

For quite some time, Logan, I have believed that the constant dumbing down of education and failure to teach anything much about British Constitution and Current Affairs has been a cynical and purposive process, enacted as a covert policy by senior politicians and permanent secretaries.

People of less than 50 in the main, are less and less likely to enjoy much knowledge of politics: few can name many minsters or Secretaries of State.

This reality plays neatly into the politicians' hands, since without base knoweldge it is almost impossible to argue cogently with them or point out the flaws in their so-called "Policies". The weakness of media interviewers is an excellent example of just how spin and plain lies become accepted as fact and truth.

I forget who wrote the comment that a country receives the government it deserves, but sadly this becomes more valid as each week passes.

 

[Logan]

There is I believe both in France, UK and elsewhere a culture of media and politicians operating in cahoots with each other. The one serves and feeds off the other. A few print journalists occasionally raise their heads over the parapet and break out from the convention but not often. When they do they get black listed and treated as an unsafe pair of hands. The cosy relationship they all enjoy is contributing to the public cynicism of both professions. It might be down to the Murdoch effect of money feeding money. Certainly real information and opinion today seems heavily filtered. The French press are even worse than the UK.

Internet forums and bloggers are now the only thing worth reading in my opinion. Again you need to be selective and exercise your own common sense in accepting truth. Perhaps the only truth when it comes to politics is that there just isn't any, especially from government spokes people. There is just spin and counter spin. Reducing the political damage of real problems, not actually dealing with them. 

I agree that the populations of Europe are slipping down a greasy slope. We need to take control of our politics and politicians not acquiesce our responsibility to a bunch of cretins just because they happen to get elected, usually by default. Unless we the people wake from our comfortable slumbers the agenda will be ripped from our grasp. Otherwise no more brave new morning.

Here is the latest news and the intention of the EU Commission and in particular the Franco/German axis to bully the Irish people. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article4187792

Read it through the prism of the Murdoch inspired bias. Most British/French press these days should come with a health warning.

 

[Gluestick]

Logan, I agree absolutely with your valued observations and conclusions.

Personally, having spent some time in Ireland, working on a major project back in 1979-80 and having the wonderful benefit of being gently educated in Irish history and affairs by an Irish gentleman, self-taught scholar and politician who just happened to be my client, I have high hopes that the independence won so hardly back in 1921-22, will figure eminent in any national spirit, despite the selfish desires of the current crop of Irish politicians!

More strength to the free people of Ireland's collective elbow!

 

 

[WJT]

Logan, I can't access the Times link for some reason.

[Logan]

Try this one WJT:-

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article4187792.ece

[WJT]

Thank you Logan, it worked.  Incredible!

[Turnip]

Ye gods - seems like the "English Disease" has reached Paris. A local English paper (Eastern Daily Press) has asnippet of overseas news relating to binge drinkers in the park surrounding the Eiffel Tower. Seems that tear gas was used to disperse the agressive French binge drinkers. Maybe binge drinking is no longer the preserve of Brits?