What happens if Britain exits Europe

[minnie]

Here's an article worth a read. It describes the position of many of us on the forum http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11698875/Emigration-Why-British-expats-have-nothing-to-fear-from-Brexit.html

[YCCMB]

I'm curious at the Telegraph's choice of words: " Here's where UK emigrants FLEE to"

So, how many of you fled.???

[minnie]

"Flee" is a bit strong, but I could say we did flee the UK traffic jams, bad weather, loutish behaviour, cheek by jowl housing and crowds in general. There is a serious side to the story though.

[Quillan]

In the very low chance that that the UK leaves the EU I have printed this off to keep and will waive it under anyones nose who tells me different, especially the French healthcare system. I have a slight feeling that using just Greenland as an example is not going to carry much weight and I wonder who wil be first to 'test' these laws in France should the Uk be stupid enough to leave the EU. Interestingly I found another couple the other day where one of them is applying for French citizenship, this brings the number up to 11 round where I live. I suspect there are a lot more who feel it prudent not to hedge their bets and look at French citizenship. I wonder if Brits in Spain are doing the same (I don't have a clue)?

[andyh4]

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

Part way down the article seems to assume that the UK will join the EEA.

Well what a good idea. You get to enjoy having to enact almost all of the EU rules, without having an opportunity to discuss or influence any of them. And EEA costs are not zero, so you cannot even say you would save all of the EU contribution costs.

Worried about immigration? Well ALL of the EEA states belong to Schengen. Would a new entrant be allowed an opt out? Who knows, but if not, then border control is weakened and not strengthened.

So worst case is that the UK leaves the EU and does not join the EEA.

And then another Torygraph myth becomes very, very broken:

QUOTE

Moving outside the EEA

You will not be covered for healthcare paid for by the UK if you are going to live permanently outside the European Economic Area (EEA).

UNQUOTE

Source:

http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/movingabroad/Pages/Introduction.aspx

So basically the whole article is based on open assumption and has little grounding in realities - not unusual for the UK press unfortunately.

Oh well we can at least cling to the Vienna convention, and hope and hope.

[Quillan]

Look we all know that if it's in the Torygraph it must be right.

I agree there was a certain amount of assumption in the article. By the way joining the EEA will save the UK £700m per year, down from £4.7bn to £4bn as I read somewhere so in a way the likes of the DM, DE and Ukip (does anyone remember them?)  were right we would save money getting out of the EU and joined the EEA just like Norway who they love to guote. Personally I think the ability to actualy have a vote on EU policy and law is worth the £700m a year extra.

[andyh4]

The problem is Q, that while the likes of you and I may understand the issues and do further research, the majority who will vote in the referendum will be dependent on opinion makers such as the DT, DM, DE and even UKIP.

If this is the quality of information being published then there is no hope that the electorate can make an informed decision.

I have very bad history with the UK press and remain unimpressed with their ability to report fact let alone opinion. (I exclude the FT since their reporting does tend to be fact based and I have never yet caught them out.)

[NickP]

if only the likes of a pompous a5se like you understands what's going on then the whole world is in trouble, let alone the population of the UK. It's incredible that the majority of the anti referendum mob on Anglo/French forums; especially those who can't vote, do nothing but try to belittle the average normal person who is a UK resident Give it a rest.

[lindal1000]

"the average normal person who is a UK resident '

What's one of them then? Are people who are not UK resident abnormal in some way? It's just that when I hear the anti EU tirades on here, purporting to represent 'the average bloke ' they bear no relation to the 'average normal people' that I know... and when the debate doesn't agree personal insults get bandied around.

[NormanH]

how very Us centlered ...the biggest problem for Brits in France is what happens in France....such as a possible FN president.....not what happens in the country they left behind
[:P]!

[andyh4]

Nickp wrote:

if only the likes of a pompous a5se like you understands what's going on then the whole world is in trouble, let alone the population of the UK. It's incredible that the majority of the anti referendum mob on Anglo/French forums; especially those who can't vote, do nothing but try to belittle the average normal person who is a UK resident Give it a rest.

Unquote

Nicky boy

You are right the whole world is in trouble.

Newspapers and other media reporting innuendo and guesses as fact does not take us forward. It increases the perceived problems of the world - or sometimes tries to hide them. What it does not do is help us move forward with fact.

That is all the pompous a5ses have tried to say.

If you cannot grasp that then it is a sad, sad situation.

Whether I can or cannot vote has nothing to do with this discussion, so get off that bike. I personally have no benefit or loss if the UK is in or out.

I belittle no one except those who will not hear.

Incidentally, the topic and the article was not about UK residents, It was about those who have "fled" - and your credentials are what------------------?

[Quillan]

[quote user="NickP"]if only the likes of a pompous a5se like you understands what's going on then the whole world is in trouble, let alone the population of the UK. It's incredible that the majority of the anti referendum mob on Anglo/French forums; especially those who can't vote, do nothing but try to belittle the average normal person who is a UK resident Give it a rest.[/quote]

I shall answer that in a civil way. Nobody here has said that the referendum should or should not take place. Indeed those that believe the UK should stay might prefer it to take place on the basis that once it is done it is done and that’s the end of it regardless of the result. Also it should be kept in mind that those who are still eligible to vote in the general election under the current rules will also be able to vote in the referendum so some will still be able to vote whilst others won't be.

Of course those of us that live and are resident in other EU states do have a vested interest which is why many make a point of finding every scrap of information they can on the subject and to be honest there is a lot of rubbish spoken in both camps. Something I never asked for but was pushed upon me without me even being asked is that the UK now pays for my healthcare in France. I work, pay tax and social contributions in France even though France does not pay for my healthcare so effectively for the next four years (in my personal case) France is getting double the money.

Like many I am worried about what would happen with regards to my healthcare if the UK decides to leave the EU and as pointed out the article does make several assumptions one of which is the UK becomes part of the EEA which it may or may not do. BUT the bottom line at the moment is that nobody knows which leads to uncertainties especially when you consider that when people ask on this forum (and others) about moving to France one of the first answers is to ensure you can get health cover as it is so important. My advice that I give house hunters who want to come here permanently is to wait till after the referendum.

 

[NickP]

Andy4 please do not call me Nicky boy, you wouldn't do so to my face so don't do it from the anonymity of your computer.

[minnie]

This personal argument is getting silly. All I did was raise awareness of the article to allow people to consider the consequences. It is now turning into a childish spat!

[idun]

[quote user="minnie"]"Flee" is a bit strong, but I could say we did flee the UK traffic jams, bad weather, loutish behaviour, cheek by jowl housing and crowds in general. There is a serious side to the story though.[/quote]

My is this thread getting irritable.

And I get irritated by comments about talk of traffic jams in the UK. They are most certainly dire in France too. My friend when she moved out into the sticks in France used to take just over  30 minutes to get to work in her car, that was 25 years ago. Now it takes an hour and a half sometimes more and is quicker, marginally on the bus, and that is what she uses now, as when she was  driving was hit in the rear twice, at jams at the peage, once writing her car off, she now prefers the bus. My son lives 60kms from work, he gets there quicker by train than people who live 15kms away.

Crowds, well we used to get them too in the cities near where I lived in France. And in the UK, one can still find areas with no jams and no crowds, and remember as with France, nulle part is just that........ nulle part.......... with very little real work for people to have !

None of us know what'll happen if the UK really leaves the EU. Speculation is a game we can play until the cows come home. In many ways, closed frontiers are not a problem for me. There are rules and one has to jump through the hoops to qualify to live in another country, we more or less did when we moved to France. We would more than likely move back to France, but maybe Ireland, if the UK pulled out of the EU. I do believe that stricter border controls would have had a marked effect on the current problems too.

[woolybanana]

I guess that there would be a long queue of white vans at the ferry points covered in union jacks, loaded with wine as the less salubrious end of the trade returned to YewKay!

[Quillan]

[quote user="minnie"]This personal argument is getting silly. All I did was raise awareness of the article to allow people to consider the consequences. It is now turning into a childish spat![/quote]

What I personally was trying to point out was that there are a few assumptions and one massive error in the article, the massive error is that Greenland is part of the EU at present as it is not an independent country but belongs to Denmark which is in the EU. It has moved some way towards independence but not completely although having had a referendum it hopes to be independent in 2020, being the 300 year anniversary of being part of Denmark although no official date has been set. Its independence has also yet to be validated by the Danish government.

Perhaps the best way to describe it is that it is like Scotland should the British government have kept it promises (given at the time of the referendum) in giving it complete fiscal independence allowing it to control its own taxes etc but still remain part of the union.

So in short the benefits Greenland currently has with regards to the EU is nothing to do with any 'special' agreement or use of law it is simply because via Denmark it is a member of the EU already and will stay as such until it either becomes independent or Denmark leaves the EU. Therefore the 'test' of what will happen if the UK leaves using Greenland as an example is not valid which makes most of the article invalid.

I assume, dangerous I know, that Andy was making is that it pays to validate these things independently because most newspapers have some form of political and EU bias, one way or the other.

[Quillan]

Idun - re time getting to work. I lived in Docklands and worked in central London, some 12 miles distance. When I worked at the V&A in Knightsbridge (near Harrods) it was considerably quicker for me to drive back and forth than it was to use public transport. The sticking point would have been parking but they gave me a space in their off street parking area. What I am saying is sometimes it is quicker by car and other times not.

[NickP]

Norman wrote: "how very Us centlered ...the biggest problem for Brits in France is what happens in France....such as a possible FN president.....not what happens in the country they left behind"

Very likely get left in limbo in a cheap barrel or hovel that they can't sell. As for the country they left behind; it will prosper and be better off as it will probably freeze pensions paid to UK citizens who remain in France and stop health care. The money saved will be split up among the white van driving, UKIP voting facist pensioners. France will be plunged into chaos as the FN raid the bank accounts of all British immigrants, who will probably be seeking refuge in the Sudan or Syria.There you go Norman and all you pessimists happy now? that's what you've all been waiting to hear. Enjoy

[Quillan]

So Nick, what do you think will happen? Will the UK vote to stay or leave and what do you think may happen to the 2m Brits that they believe may be living in EU countries should the UK vote to leave the EU? Will those retired and are inactive continue to get their healthcare paid for by the UK and will UK citizens still be able to use the European Health Card when they go on holiday? Will the UK join the EEA or will it try and trade with the EU and will tariffs be placed on UK goods and services supplied to the EU? Likewise will the UK place import duty on EU goods entering the UK either as standard or in retaliation should the EU place tariffs on UK goods and services entering the EU? What will happen to the 2 to 4m people, depending which source you want to believe, whose job in the UK relies on the UK being part of the EU? These are serious questions and not me trying to be 'smart' etc and I wonder what your serious views are.

[lindal1000]

What I often think is lost in these discussions on this and other similar forums, is the voice of the younger voters. So, whilst it is perhaps a reflection of the two different sides of the discussion of the over 50s (and I'm guessing here that the majority on this forum fall into that brackets) it doesn't reflect the voting public by and large. Don't forget that generation have never known a 'before' the EU.

I'd also be interested to know what those who want to leave think will happen afterwards. And I don't mean 'it'll all be like it was 50 years ago', but seriously, how will it work out on a practical level. And this is not about having a go at anyone on here or anyone's views.

[Chancer]

[quote user="NickP"]Andy4 please do not call me Nicky boy, you wouldn't do so to my face so don't do it from the anonymity of your computer.[/quote]

And I would hope that you would have the good sense not call someone a pompous ar5e to their face, this debate would be a lot better without the trading of insults.

[NickP]

You are asking a question that nobody including the intelligentsia of this forum can answer. As I said earlier; myself and most people,and that means ordinary (normal) people will find out first what changes could or will take place. On receiving those facts I will make my mind up on which way to vote. The only certainty for me, is that I will vote for what I believe is best for residents of the UK, and as that includes me and my family, what else would you expect? In the mean time lots of people on this and other forums are getting their knickers in a twist and pumping out scare stories.

[NickP]

Chancer, the term pompous a5se is a fact considering what the person stated, not a patronizing snide term. I would have no concerns about repeating what I said face to face, another fact for you or anybody else to consider.

[Quillan]

[quote user="NickP"]You are asking a question that nobody including the intelligentsia of this forum can answer. As I said earlier; myself and most people,and that means ordinary (normal) people will find out first what changes could or will take place. On receiving those facts I will make my mind up on which way to vote. The only certainty for me, is that I will vote for what I believe is best for residents of the UK, and as that includes me and my family, what else would you expect? In the mean time lots of people on this and other forums are getting their knickers in a twist and pumping out scare stories.[/quote]

I didn't ask a question I asked a set of questions which it would seem that you have yet to investigate yourself or form an opinion. Most of what people say is what they have read or heard in the media, some of which is correct and some which is terrible incorrect like we can be the same as Norway and implying it won't cost the UK taxpayer a penny and that if we did trade in the same way as Norway we could ignore EU legislation which is a lie. Also the article first mentioned said that Greenland was independent which is another lie because it isn't it is part of Denmark, at least for the time being. Like you those Brits that live in other EU countries that will be entitled to vote will vote in their own interests. Mind you judging by Camerons recent comments we might not see a referendum.