Stuffed then !

[AnOther]

http://www.connexionfrance.com/Lords-referendum-vote-long-term-expats-17449-view-article.html

[vette]

That's one way to neutralise some of the competition I suppose.

Probably be a big fiddle anyway.

[Aardvark]

Correct.

If/when the UK decides to come out of the EU the referendum results will be fiddled to bring the desired outcome of the bods at the top who pull the strings.  I don't hold out any hopes for democracy having any part in the proceedings.

[andyh4]

I would have thought that those being excluded would be more likely to vote in the way that the powers that be would have wanted.

However I am sure we will have voices from some who will insist that we have no right to determine our home country's future.

[idun]

Even if we had stayed in France and IF I could have voted, I would have voted against the UK staying in.

[andyh4]

But had you stayed, you would not have had the opportunity to voice that opinion in the vote.

[idun]

I wouldn't be bothered.

As we moved to France so long ago, we voted for a full 20 years in UK elections, and that seemed fair enough, it was our choice not to live in the UK.

[Rabbie]

In my opinion the only people who should be allowed to vote are those who are resident in the country and those British citizens who are paying tax on their pensions to the UK.

People should have to take some responsibility for their vote and by paying tax or being resident then you have to live with the consequences

[mint]

[quote user="Rabbie"]In my opinion the only people who should be allowed to vote are those who are resident in the country and those British citizens who are paying tax on their pensions to the UK.

People should have to take some responsibility for their vote and by paying tax or being resident then you have to live with the consequences[/quote]

What about those of us who do not pay taxes in the UK by reason of being resident in France but who nonetheless are UK citizens?

You do realise that only certain types of pensions, eg, local authoritiy pensions such as for teachers, etc, are taxed in the UK?

You might like to re-think your stance, Rabbie?

[lindal1000]

Or those British citizens who own property in UK and pay tax on rental income..or those who live in France but run a UK based business maybe?

[Rabbie]

Deleted - Double post

[idun]

lindal, surely a branch of said UK business would have to be opened in France, I thought it was where one worked from that affected how all this worked?

[andyh4]

Idun

That would depend on the circumstances. It is possible to be resident in one country and work (and pay tax) in another - been there and done it.

The simple rule is that you pay tax in the country where you do the work (which will usually be the one where you are resident - but may not be so). It is however a simple rule. Consider the businessman who travels around Europe selling his product. He certainly does not pay tax in every country he visits on business.

The simple rule is however still a very good guide.

[Rabbie]

Mint and others. To clarify my views on this. Only British residents and those British citizens who pay British tax should have the right to vote in UK elections. Those who have moved to another country and who have no fiscal connection with the U.K. should not have a vote in my opinion. This is because I believe that voters should have to face up to the consequences of their vote.

The vote for people living abroad was only brought in in 1980 because Thatcher believed they would to large extent vote Conservative. Prior to that they had no vote.

[mint]

So, by your "logic", Rabbie, you'd give the vote to a retired teacher in France but not a retired nurse?

Needless to say, I disagree profoundly with your point of view[geek]

[idun]

[quote user="andyh4"]Idun

That would depend on the circumstances. It is possible to be resident in one country and work (and pay tax) in another - been there and done it.

The simple rule is that you pay tax in the country where you do the work (which will usually be the one where you are resident - but may not be so). It is however a simple rule. Consider the businessman who travels around Europe selling his product. He certainly does not pay tax in every country he visits on business.

The simple rule is however still a very good guide.[/quote]

Yes, but we are talking french residents here, rather than those that roam to work.

ie Someone I know works for a company doing their IT. They plan to move to France and continue working for them from their french home. Currently this company is happy for them to do this. Now as far as I was aware, they would have to register somehow in France, or have a branch of their employers company in France, because what would count is where they do the work and not who for.

Incidentally, the person in question, has no intention of registering anything at all in France, they say that the EU gives them the liberty to make the move and just continue as an employee in the UK.

So I am wrong in this?

[sid]

I really don't see what paying UK tax has got to do with this. UK citizens, resident or not, should be allowed to vote on this question as it directly affects them. As it is, it's simply a way of excluding a large number of people who may be more inclined to vote to stay in the EU (or at least to stay half in, as we are now!).

People with a fiscal connection to UK surely includes those on state pensions, probably the larger percentage of those living in France for example.

I feel really miffed that having paid my taxes and NI (and in my case my company taxes and NI contributions too) I will be excluded from having a say... that is, in another 4 years, since the rule incudes a 15 year limit.

People who keep banging on about us having made a choice to live abroad need to get real ! The whole point of the EU is about freedom of movement.

 

[andyh4]

Idun

Your example is exactly correct. Working for a UK company but with your bum firmly planted in France when doing the work means you are French tax resident and the company should employ you through their French subsidiary - or by some other means.

However consider this:

Living in France. Employed by a German company. The person in question was required to do a lot of business travelling to various locations throughout Europe and beyond, including France. For large parts of the time it was practical to fly directly from a French airport to the international destination on Monday morning and return on Friday (having quite probably changed location and country during the week).

On those occasions when it was necessary to work in the German office it was at the cost of the individual and not the company - important since it establishes the independence of the home from work.

Any work done in France was at the company's locations, its suppliers or customers and never done from home - important since this again separates home and work.

Essentially the individual is at home only at weekends and holidays - but nevertheless resident if only because the family are permanently in France - which fixes him firmly in France - and also because more bed nights are spent in France than any other country - not a very good criteria to establish residence but can be enough if all else fails the tax authorities.

For tax niceties it is necessary to also have a German residence - rented pied a terre used when at "home" (German) base - essential to establish firm separation of home and work for the German tax authorities and establish German tax residency (rules for the UK are different but I cannot claim to be an expert there).

Essential this individual has dual physical and tax residency.

Sorry this is a rather complex example, but back to the original point, it would be possible for a French resident to own a UK company, use his staff to run it on a day to day basis and return to the UK to do all of the necessary overall management. No work is done in France except when visiting suppliers or customers. Ergo, the individual is French resident but would pay taxes in the UK.

I am not saying any of these cases are common, but they do legitimately exist.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="mint"]So, by your "logic", Rabbie, you'd give the vote to a retired teacher in France but not a retired nurse?

Needless to say, I disagree profoundly with your point of view[geek]

[/quote]That is your perogative. I would hope we could disagree on something without falling out.

My point is that votes should be for the people they affect. I agree that the referendum is a special case and if it were up to me I would allow British citizens in other EU countries to take part but I can see no reason to allow UK citizens who are permanently resident in other countries to take part. By the same logic I do not want my UK taxes affected by the votes of those who do not pay any and do not live in the country and are not affected by the result..

[NormanH]

1) I have no vote in UK elections although I pay taxes there.

So I have 'taxation without representation'

2) This particular election is not the same as for the UK Parliament so the rules could be dufferent

In any case I don't link voting only to taxation.

I believe that the right to vote is an integral part of nationality, and so it should be permanent as long as I remain British.

A small point:  UK state pensions  (the OAP)  are taxable in France but government pensions are taxable in the UK so you are not quite right sid.

[sid]

You are correct Norman, but I wasn't saying that my OAP is taxed in UK, merely that I have a fiscal connection, namely I receive money from UK, therefore I'm connected.

 

[Judith]

UK citizens, ie those who hold a UK passport, should be allowed to vote in UK elections, no matter where they live, or we create a society of disenfranchised citizens unable to vote anywhere.  By virtue of holding that UK passport, you are not allowed full voting rights elsewhere.  Whilst there is much to fault about the EU, when free movement of peoples is one of it's aims, this can never be fully operational unless free voting rights are transferable.  Else they are forever kept in the country to which you are allocated citizenship.  Thus UK passport holders = full voting rights in the UK - in perpetuity.

[YCCMB]

Is not an election...it's a referendum. Same thing they had in Scotland, where only those living there were allowed a vote.

[Judith]

Understood Betty, but my point was intended to be more generally applicable, much as Norman's similar viewpoint. 

As it happens, if they include those UK citizens who already have a vote under the 15yr rule, I will be able to vote, but for me the real point is that if you are a UK citizen, you get a vote, for ALL elections, in perpetuity.  The fact that quite a lot of UK citizens living abroad may decide to disenfranchise themselves and not vote, is quite a different ball game, for having the right to vote (for which universal right we fought long and hard, both men and women) is a human right.

I might add - that if I were allowed to vote fully in the country in which I now (or at least for the present) chose to live, my voting rights would then be continued - but in another country.  For me it is the continuation of full and universal voting rights as an adult which is important, rather than being allocated to one country or another.  I might also add - I always vote in every election in which I am allowed to do so - it is my duty as a citizen of the world, especially since people fought and died to give me that right.