Should computers take over the world ?

[EuroTrash]

How about moving the discussion on from whether wifi and satnavs have enriched or impoverished our lives, which is a bit of a fait accompli, to a fait that isn't yet accompli but maybe soon will be - Are driverless cars a good idea?

I see the arguments in favour but I'm not convinced, and it's fast turning into a world that I don't much want to live in. Seems to me that as technology encroaches more and more, we have to adjust our mentality to hand over more and more of the skills we used to use and maybe even enjoy and take pride in - map reading, mental arithmetic, and next, apparently, driving. Will everyday life eventually be reduced to a series of buttons to press?

http://www.lefigaro.fr/secteur/high-tech/2016/11/30/32001-20161130ARTFIG00106-la-france-se-dote-d-un-centre-d-essai-pour-les-voitures-autonomes.php

[Patf]

I agree Eurotrash. I was pleased to see on BBC news today the some UK schools are starting to encourage children to play bridge -  good for maths and memory etc.  (That can become addictive too!)

I still prefer a map to satnav and always will.

The trouble with computers, media etc is that overuse could lead to loss of ability to think independently.

"It must be true, it says so on the TV/ internet etc."

And as for Facebook and twitter [:@]

[PaulT]

Cars - it will be down to how good the technology is. Have been reading reviews of dash cams and some have lane warning for when you stray and also warnings if you are too close to the car in front - and the reviews normally state that these are a bit hit or miss. Now I am sure the technology in cars will be an improvement on that in dash cams but......

Anyone who has driven in rush hour on the likes of the M25 will know that some drivers perform some very dangerous manoeuvres - whilst computers can react extremely quickly will they be programmed for every eventuality.

But how have computers aided life? My wife has been diagnosed with a brain tumour. Via the use of a frame attached to her head an MRI scan accurately provided the location of the tumour and then a gamma radiation machine fired up to 200 gamma rays through her head to converge on the tumour, all controlled by computers, impossible to do by a human with a handheld ray gun.

There are dangers of security but just think if we had to write a cheque each time with the required postage stamp on it rather than looking up our account balance on line. Paying for our insurance with a click of the mouse having obtained the quote online from a comparison of a number of quotations.

My motoring started with a 1700cc car that would, at best, return just over 20mpg. Computers in cars now mean that they now do far more miles per gallon emitting far less pollutants.

Just changed to Smart meters in the UK - accurate readings to the energy supplier so accurate bills and better information on energy use.

No having to find a telephone box when out to make a telephone call, just use the mobile.

Oh, I could go on. But just think, if it was not for computers we would not be communicating.

[mint]

I joke to OH that it would be wonderful for us to have a driverless car. 

He is getting to the age when he will be considering stopping driving in the near future.  As for me, my sense of direction is not getting better (starting from a very low point) and my eyesight is certainly worsening to an alarming degree.

I was delayed at the social gathering I went to only 2 days ago.  It was at a village not 20 minutes from my home.  In daylight, even I would have found my way easily but, in the dark, mon dieu, doesn't everything look different and aren't distances deceptive?

I fantasise about OH and me sitting in the back of our driverless car with the dog between us going for lovely, long drives in the countryside.  Perhaps I ought to think about that imaginary heaven when I go to bed every night.............may fall asleep with a smile and have lovely dreams[:)]

[Patf]

[:D]

I can't imagine my husband ever having a driverless car. He would be yelling at it from the back seat "careful - too fast - wrong way - I'll drive - let me out!"

[mint]

Ah, yes, the ultimate back seat driver[:D]

If it's any consolation, mine can be a bit like that too.  To cure that, you need to stop the car, get out and say, "OK, YOU drive then!"

Nowadays, he confines his instructions to mutterings low enough for me to turn a deaf ear to.

[woolybanana]

Perhaps all cars driven by ladies should be driverless!

[alittlebitfrench]

Most cars in France are already driverless.

[woolybanana]

albf, for once we agree on something

[dave21478]

Its way, way WAY too late to be asking this question - its done, and nothing is going to stop it. 10 years ago was the time to protest automation.

Driverless cars are in use, Uber have driverless taxis on trial, shipping companies have driverless lorries on trial and their rate of exapansion is going to increase exponentially. The necessary technology is already being integrated into car design so that "driverless" can be easily activated once testing is complete.

Within the next 20 years, driving jobs will be pretty much obsolete in the west.....it will start with the big companies who can invest in the new vehicles, meaning the job market will flood with experienced drivers willing to cut each others throats to get a job driving for the remaining small firms until even they find it better for the bottom line to sack the meatbags and install machines that can run literally 24/7, never fall asleep, never argue, never get drunk, never join a union and demand better pay.....

Truckdriving is the most common job in Trumpton and the driverless vehicle is going to decimate the countries economy.

Not just driving, McDonalds have recently announced that states planning to introduce a 15 dollar minimum wage will be the first to be equipped with automated restaurants....these are on trial and even here in France, most now have automated ordering stations to replace the counter staff.

Give it 20 years and there will be very few jobs not at risk from the machines. EVERYONE from burgersmiths to truckdrivers to warehouse staff to office workers and shop workers is at risk.

There isnt a large supermarket that DOESNT have self-service tills already. Those are not going to go away. They will soon enough be replacing all the manned tills. Amazon have recently launched a shop where there are no tills at all. You walk in, scan your phone at the entry, sensors and machine intelligence track what you pick up, you put it in your bag and walk out, with your account being charged once you leave the store. No humans needed.

Think that high skill stuff is safe? Googles medical artificial intelligence is ALREADY out-performing meatbag doctors by a vast margin....instant access to literally millions of medical reports, drug trials, textbooks, patient medical notes and the ability to cross-reference and extrapolate data in fractions of a second leaves the most experienced doctors scrabbling to keep up.

I am naturally pessemistic by nature but I am not alone in thinking it is going to be grim times ahead.

[EuroTrash]

Unfortunately I'm sure you're right. The only way it could be stopped would be if humans made a decision that it wasn't what they wanted, but they won't. In fact we're working to make ourselves obsolete, aren't we?

[richard51]

Thread seems to have moved on from just cars. For the old nerds here can you remember "Tomorrows World". The predictions in that programme have not all materialised, but, by jove, technologically the world is a far different place (for those that can afford) than then.

[PaulT]

Computers - someone can go online and transfer money from their bank account to mine and it will appear in minutes. Before the person would have sent me a cheque which I would have taken to a bank branch, filled in a 'paying in' slip, handed it to the cashier and several days later the money would have appeared in my account. Which do I prefer?

My car is stolen, I report it and via the ANPR cameras in police cars it informs the officers that the car in front is stolen, they stop it and I get my car back. Previously, I would have reported it and there would be no way of police officers would know it was stolen so would not stop it. Which do I prefer?

This is what is called progress.

[NickP]

Whether or not driverless cars will be in public use will be decided by the big insurance companies. Can you imagine trying to apportion blame after a crash, and crash they will; as one already has. Is it the owner's fault, the manufacturers fault the software designers fault?

Another interesting idea going around at the moment is the "see you home drone " if you live in a dark secluded area, you will be able to call up a drone that will hover over you with a light and see you to your door. Obviously, there will be added security as the drone will have cameras that will react to problems and call for help. Interesting times.

[dave21478]

Nobody thinks progress is a bad thing - Im not saying we need to go back to quill pens and riding penny farthings, but unchecked progress could literally be the end of us.

Many people (including Stephen Hawking, I believe) believe that genuine artificial intelligence is mankinds biggest threat. If we succeed in creating it - and scientists are trying very hard indeed all over the world - then its likely to rapidly improve itself within seconds to be so far beyond our comprehension that it might as well be God. It might well decide to alter quantum vacuum states just becaused it wants to end literally end the universe.

Yes, that sounds like the plot to a bad Star Trek episode, but there is no way to know how it will react and behave. Yes, its likely to be isolated on a computer network somewhere, but what if it invents a way to expand beyond that network? if its advanced beyond our understanding, we cant plan on how to contain or control it. Could we react fast enough to switch it off in time?

Less dramatically, automation is going to completely and irrecoverably screw our current economies. If the robots are doing the work, what are the workers going to do?

[dave21478]

Big insurers LOVE the concept of automated cars.

They will still be pulling in the same premiums every year to cover drivers that never tire, never text, never drink, and have an exponentially lower accident rate than humans.

The thing to be worried about is what the machine decides in a no-win emergency - swerve to protect the car occupants and squish a pedestrian, or save the pedestrian and risk those in the car.

[Judith]

"Computers - someone can go online and transfer money from their bank

account to mine and it will appear in minutes. Before the person would

have sent me a cheque which I would have taken to a bank branch, filled

in a 'paying in' slip, handed it to the cashier and several days later

the money would have appeared in my account. "

AND - they can easily loose it ... and also be easily blamed when some incompetent messes it up ..... swings and roundabouts, methinks.

[dave21478]

I read recently from I think Mercedes that their systems are being programmed to protect the car occupants at the expense of all others if the situation arises, as that is most closely aligned with a human drivers self-preservation instincts.

The moral question of whether a computer should be allowed to make that kind of choice is being pretty much ignored.

[dave21478]

Computer "mistakes" are human error at either the programming or data entry stages.

The problem is that humans are designing these systems, so errors are inevitable.

[richard51]

The only improvements to Star Trek in the last few years has been the quality of the animation.

Science progresses mainly by very minor improvements over time. Very rarely are there seismic shifts in progress and these are mainly unpredictable.

[PaulT]

Dave wrote:

'Many people (including Stephen Hawking, I believe) believe that genuine artificial intelligence is mankinds biggest threat. If we succeed in creating it'

and how intelligent is mankind? During the last 100 years there have been two World Wars and the second of those could well have gone the other way if it had not been for Bletchley Park and the work developing the worlds first mobile computer.

At present religion is fueling 'wars' that are killing people as well as displacing vast numbers.

A very large number of species are on the brink or have been eliminated due to the actions of mankind.

Is artificial intelligence preferable to mankind intelligence?

[Pierre ZFP]

This sort of discussion has probably been going on forever.

'A wheel you call it? What's wrong with dragging stuff around?'

Or the weaving loom or .....

Yes I like computers, they have provided me with a very good living over the years and the one thing that has kept me grounded is a lecturer on a PL/1course (anyone remember PL/1?)

He said

'A computer can count from 0 to 1, everything else is an illusion'

But using/not using a computer is not mutually exclusive.

There was an extremely interesting program on BBC a few days ago about the Astrolabe which was described as 'The GPS of it's day'

Do I use GPS? Yes

Do I know how to use an astrolabe? Yes

[NickP]

Dave wrote: "Big insurers LOVE the concept of automated cars.

They will still be pulling in the same premiums every year to cover drivers that never tire, never text, never drink, and have an exponentially lower accident rate than humans.

The thing to be worried about is what the machine decides in a no-win emergency - swerve to protect the car occupants and squish a pedestrian, or save the pedestrian and risk those in the car."

I have no wish to give away any more personal information than necessary but my daughter is very high up the management ladder in one of the UKs biggest car insurance companies, and what she has to say on the subject is not what you are saying Dave, just the opposite.

[dave21478]

The early days are what insurers fear - unproven technologies, no legal precedents for machine decison making etc, but once its commonplace it will be business as usual for them.

[PaulT]

Self driving cars - the owner is banned from driving for whatever reason, can they use a self driving car :) :(