To kiss or not to kiss... and modern culture

[chessie]

Oh dear - stop the world.

What is happening to France ?

Anyone read this ?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/31/death-french-kiss-mayor-refuses-give-la-bise-73-colleagues/

The beginning of the end of another french tradition;  if it's anything like the UK then I'm afraid we're going to have all the 'virtue signallers', the LGBT (whatever) minority groups shouting their support of a long-held civilised custom.

Comments anyone ?

Chessie

[woolybanana]

How very sensible to avoid hairy men and women plus dirty old bug gers of undecided sex and sexuality, the smell of garlic, stale breath, stale sperm and mothballs.

I have always encouraged people to shake hands, particularly children.

[andyh4]

Well I can imagine the prejudices from the Anglo brigade.

At work I had a group of staff and we exchanged bisoux every morning. I did have to remember to only kiss twice (marseillais(e)) and not three times (ardechois(e)). Males would however shake hands. No one seemed to be intimidated by this; indeed I did wonder if it was a test for me to see if I would/could fit in.

Now at home bisoux are exchanged (and sometimes hand shakes) with male and female colleagues and friends. What's not to like? Unless of course the Anglos feel this is all a bit too intimate.

As for the time taken - any more or less shaking hands and saying good morning? It is a pleasantry and as such should be treated as something pleasant.

[lindal1000]

I work with one French colleague who refuses to bisoux and will offer long explanations as to why. The others think he's a bit odd. Bisoux of various numbers seem to be an accepted greeting all over Europe now.. including in some parts of the UK (although not usually in a work context). Why would LGBT people be virtue signalling about it? I didn't think it was a tradition linked in any way to sexuality? It's no different to shaking hands in that sense (and a lot more hygienic!).(Many more nasty germs on the hands than the lips and cheeks!)

[Patf]

I'm more reserved and at first found this kissing difficult. Even now I'm sure our male farming neighbours would find it embarrassing. But it's important to start each meeting with a handshake and ça va?

But I do give my female neighbours a hug and kiss when I meet them.

 I never liked the kissing with british immigrants who seem to think you're their longlost  friend even on first meeting.

I go along with Louis Armstrong:

"I see friends shaking hands, saying how do you do," etc.

[Chancer]

If you are embarrassed and find la bise difficult then hold out your hand, stand your ground and retain your dignity and distance.

 

In any case you should never be giving la bise to someone that you address as vous.

 

It gets blurred in clubs, social groups, work colleagues etc where the norme is to tutoyer but it is still entirely acceptable to offer your hand, it also makes you own the situation and the Relationship will be on your terms.

 

For me it is a colossal waste of time, in my diving club there were around 40 people would turn up to the pool sessions, it was written that we had to arrive 30 minutes before so as to get to the changing rooms for 20.00 when they were opened, trouble is 40 people means 1560 kisses/handshake shared and it would take at least 45 minutes of mindless euuhhing and bises made much worse by those who would always arrive late but still insist on kissing everyone.

 

If you arrive late, and the Maire in question and myself do this purposely its actually bad politesse to greet everyone individually whether it be a handshake or bise, you should greet everyone collectively in a loud voice waving both hands at them all. The French do it with an apologetic "I'm so sorry" look on their face I do it proudly.

 

My running club sessions are just as bad, not so many people but loads of persistant late arrivals that want to be the centre of attention, at this time of year I can get hyperthermic whilst waiting, I used to run around the piste to keep warm while all the Muppets turned up and would  get in at least an extra 5km over the session, for this reason I changed clubs to one with a locale so at least I could stay warm while people do what they believe is expected of them, trouble is the noise drives me outside in the cold now [:(] I gain between 30 and 45 minutes 3 times a week by my strategy, thats a lot of time over a lifetime, I get away with it because I am l'etranger.

 

The new proviseur at the lycée where I used to teach had come from Papeete IIRC, she refused point blank to give la bise or shake hands and would also not respond to anyone who greeted her with a bonjour and outstretched hand, she just got down to the business of what the person wanted, it was really badly recieved by all my colleagues but I got her completely and respected her enormously.

[NormanH]

I have always found that the distinction between those with whom one shakes hands and those with whom 'on fait la bise' it's pretty clear, and I always leave it to the French side to decide which is appropriate.

There are some people, usually women,  with whom I shake hands usually, but who will in the special circumstances say 'on fait la bise quand même' .

When I first arrived in France and started directing a choir of  about 60 people, I felt, as many English newcomers do, a little embarrassed,  a little irritated by the need to shake everyone's hand as they arrived. I just wanted to get on with the business in hand.

Now I see it was one of the great advantages of the French way of life.

It's about a formal appreciation of each and everyone of the people who is present, and woe betide you if you try shaking hands a second time, because you will be showing that you didn't notice them the first time, and that of course is very insulting.

It is also an expression of solidarity and equality between the members of a group.

nowadays I would find anybody who behaved in this way

not respond to anyone who greeted her with a bonjour and outstretched

hand, she just got down to the business of what the person wanted

As  just plain rude and unworthy of  respect.

[mint]

I'm with you on this one, Norman.

When I first came and couldn't speak or understand, it was wonderful to be included in the kissing[:D]  Didn't feel so nearly out on a limb as I might have done.  I thought people were being friendly and were going out of their way to include me in their greeting of each other.

Don't forget, I was out a lot on my own, that is, sans OH and so I would literally be the only person there who could not understand the language and I might as well have been deaf and mute for all the participation I was able to contribute.

I had a very friendly relationship with our previous factrice when I came here to the Dordogne to live 7 years ago.  She came to the gate with a letter and immediately introduced herself and gave me 2 kisses.  Here was I, a total stranger, and she made that first move which endeared her to me forever.

She's retired now but, should we run into each other in town, we always exchange les bises.

[woolybanana]

What all of this shows is that there is flexibility in all this nonsense and that La France she is a changing.

[cajal]

From an article in yesterdays Telegraph:

'One regional newspaper Le Populaire du Centre even timed how long it

took one young female journalist to complete a round of morning bises on both cheeks and found that over a year it amounted to three working days'.

Couple that tradition with that other tradition of the 2 hour lunch and it's easy to understand why France is economically stunted.

Full article here.

[BritinBretagne]

[quote user="cajal"]

From an article in yesterdays Telegraph:

'One regional newspaper Le Populaire du Centre even timed how long it

took one young female journalist to complete a round of morning bises on both cheeks and found that over a year it amounted to three working days'.

Couple that tradition with that other tradition of the 2 hour lunch and it's easy to understand why France is economically stunted.

Full article here.

[/quote]

But streets ahead of the UK in terms of productivity.

[NormanH]

It doesn't seem to affect productivity too badly though:

The OBR notes that  in 2015 UK productivity was lower than that of France by 22.7%

UK productivity shortfall with the G7 relatively stable in 2015

Current price GDP per hour worked

On this basis, UK productivity in 2015 was:

• above that of Japan by 10.6%

• above that of Canada by 1.2%

• lower than that of Italy by 10.5%

• lower than that of the US by 22.2%

• lower than that of France by 22.7%

• lower than that of Germany by 26.7%

• lower than that of the rest of the G7 by 15.9%

source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/economicoutputandproductivity/productivitymeasures/bulletins/internationalcomparisonsofproductivityfinalestimates/2015

[cajal]

[quote user="BritinBretagne"]

 But streets ahead of the UK in terms of productivity.[/quote]

(Thread drift alert)

Maybe, but obviously not productive enough up the right street.

UK gdp: 2.619 trillion USD

FR gdp: 2.465 trillion USD

2016 figures

[BritinBretagne]

It’s a well documented fact. Your bias does not stand up to the facts. Sorry.

[BritinBretagne]

[quote user="cajal"][quote user="BritinBretagne"]

 But streets ahead of the UK in terms of productivity.[/quote]

(Thread drift alert)

Maybe, but obviously not productive enough up the right street.

UK gdp: 2.619 trillion USD

FR gdp: 2.465 trillion USD

2016 figures

[/quote]

The Economist recently noted, “The French could take Friday off and still produce more than Britons do in a week.” This is not something you hear very often from our chancellor. They also have a rather better balanced economy and a considerably lower Gini Coefficient, the preferred measure of inequality. While we’re at it, they beat us on GDP per capita, earn roughly the same and have a lower cost of living.

[cajal]

[quote user="BritinBretagne"]It’s a well documented fact. Your bias does not stand up to the facts. Sorry.[/quote]

Bias? Ha. Take your disagreements up with The World Bank bucko, not me , as it is their published figures I quoted.

[BritinBretagne]

Bucko?

[NormanH]

You are confusing gross domestic product with productivity.

my source, the office of budget responsibility, UK government source, shows that French productivity is 22.7% higher than that of the UK, despite all their 'bises'.

[andyh4]

The two sets of data are not necessarily in conflict.

This raises the interesting question of whether it is better to have a highly efficient workforce but high unemployment, or an inefficient workforce but essentially full employment.

Of course ideally you would want the best of both worlds - a la Germany.

[Gardengirl]

Everyone we know in the town we live for about half of each year gives/receives 3 kisses. That includes our 94 year old neighbour, who instigated it with us, but we very definitely use the formal vous to one another - again going with what she uses. Not as easy as tutoying, so I need to concentrate more, although I sometimes forget.

[chessie]

Isn't it sad that a rather light-hearted post descends into a bit of Brit bashing, economic GDP, yah boo sucks 'my facts published in blah blah blah.....'

For pity's sake guys - stop it.

Just thought it was interesting;  a custom that the Brits moving out here seem to have adopted with relish (at least my OH thinks its great fun, he would !!).   I've watched the young people greet each other this way and seen some of the young girls wipe their cheeks afterwards obviously not too happy at the custom.   Just interesting to watch their reactions.

Happy New Year everyone

Chessie - oh and here's my three bisou to y'all - 

[NormanH]

"Isn't it sad that a rather light-hearted post descends into a bit of Brit bashing"

The original post referred to a French-bashing article by the Daily Telegraph, a newspaper that never misses an opportunity to attack France and Europe,

this despite the fact  that its owners  the Barclay Brothers  live in the Channel Islands rather than the UK and have recently tried to get £1.25bn from HMRC.

In defending the custom of 'la bise' I pointed out that it didn't seem to affect productivity since according to UK figures French productivity is 22.7% higher than that of the UK.

I too cringe with embarrassment at the British Immigrant community who misunderstand  and misapply the custom with none of the social finesses  of the French

[alittlebitfrench]

Brt wrote :

"They earn roughly the same and have a lower cost of living"

Methinks not Brit.

I don't know anyone here in France who would not earn a higher wage in the UK.

Cost of living is probably about the same but taxes are far higher. So life is more expensive.

[mint]

I'm into thread drift territory here but I'd like to reply to ALBF's last remark that "life is more expensive" (in France)

Have you taken out the cost of housing in your calculation?

All I hear in the media is about people being unable to afford to buy or even rent, especially in the south east of England.

Now I am no longer au fait with current prices but I do get the impression, at least from the telly[:-))], that even employed people in good jobs such as nursing, have to go to food banks on account of inability to pay bills and still eat!

I must admit I do find this sort of information unbelievable but, of course, I do believe it as it is clearly a reality for those folk brave enough to go on the telly and tell it as it is!

I don't want to do any Britain bashing, I just feel sad that it's arrived at such a sorry state and I hope that the media, in its usual way, are merely exaggerating stories to grab attention and provide "entertainment".

[alittlebitfrench]

Yes Mint.

In demand areas all over France I think house prices are relatively the same. If you factor in level of salaries, then I would say they are more expensive.

Remember in demand areas they can't stop building which implies that there is a shortage of housing in France as well.

You just have to watch chasseurs d'appart on M6 every night to see how little you get for your budget in France. Remember they are filming these programmes in areas where people need to live in order to work.