French motorists are just thick as...

[alittlebitfrench]

This is a complicated debate.

Firstly, I think the young are very badly trained in France....or maybe their parents don't take enough interest in teaching their kids how to drive beyond their driving test. My kids will not drive until am confident they can drive. End of full stop. Papa will not buy you a coffin to drive in.

Secondly, the older generation in France have grown up in an era where anything goes. A large proportion of the elderly generation do not have any respect for rules or other motorists. It is a question of mentality. You can't really blame them because that is what they are used to. Now throw in the problems of getting old and it is a recipe for disaster. Some elderly's still take priority going into a roundabout.....which used to be the rule in France. I see it every day. They will tailgate you as well, because they see it as the 'done' thing.

So on that basis, I am more afraid of the post 50 generation of drivers.

[chessie]

ALBF - good points;  hadn't really understood about older french drivers and the 'french' attitude, explains a lot !;  but - flaw in the argument.

Aren't the older drivers likely to be fewer in number on the roads;  and less likely to be driving the new, high powered cars, using mobile phones - or playing loud music on their in-car boombox music systems.

But it does really come down to what's been mentioned before.

The french driving instruction is not fit for today's world;  it's not suitable;  it's not kept up with modern traffic and modern cars.

So it is the young drivers who need to be taught modern day driving techniques, and manners, and road awareness.

The oldies are dropping in numbers - but there's far more of the young 'uns, who are not so skilful, driving around.   You can normally get out of the way of the old doddery who can hardly see over the steering wheel;  it's generally possible to spot and avoid.

But just watch the young women drivers in particular - jeeps - they really are a mobile hazard.

Chessie

[richard51]

So we are back to speed limits.

(only thing would say there is that 20 kmph feels hardly more than walking pace and only to be followed when cameras around. Much better to have other traffic calming measures such as narrowing of roads at entry/exit points)

OK I am 66yrs old (pretty obvious from name) and have taught my older kid to drive and refused to teach the others.

IMHO altough they are now competent drivers they are too confident, drive too fast and think that their reactions will prevent serious problems.

Make of this what you wish but I do have concern when they drive me anywhere, whereas they have no issue in asking for me to drive them. (they vary from 32 to 23yrs).

NB my frustration with logic here refers to this and another recent thread(s)!!

[Patf]

"The oldies are dropping in numbers"

It varies from one dept. to another. In the Gers people have the 3rd longest lifespan of all french depts (or did the last time I checked on Insee.)

Average age in the Depeche obituaries late 80s.

[Tom 58]

I'm really puzzled by the extreme criticism of drivers in France expressed by many on this thread because that has not been my experience at all. For the first five years I used to drive practically every working day in and around Paris with many long trips into the country at weekends, looking for a retirement property. Latterly I drive less but on a wider variety of mainly relatively narrow roads and with a greater range of hazards.

Perhaps more by luck than by judgement I have managed to avoid any accidents or fines over the past seventeen years and it's certainly not because I always scrupulously obey every rule. I do like to 'make progress' when on a journey. I feel comfortable and confident driving in France and find the vast majority of other drivers are generally predictable and competent. The few who aren't are usually fairly easy to spot and to avoid.

[BritinBretagne]

I agree with everything you’ve written Tom, I never feel threatened when using French roads especially when I motorcycling when the average driver is so much more bike aware and considerate than those in England or Germany.

The trouble is that on forums like this it’s considered to be trendy and big to express anti France and anti the French way of life views. There is also an unexplained need to generalise and to refer to the French in general as they. If I keep visiting expat forums for long enough perhaps I will start to understand what it’s all about. Perhaps not.

[chessie]

Tom - '...few who aren't ....easy to spot and avoid....'

NOT when they are driving UP your exhaust - you've certainly spotted them, but they can't be avoided;  indicate, pull in, slow down - and they are STILL there - stuck to your bumper and very slow to understand that you wish them to overtake.   It's happened to many of us - and was, I think, what the OP of this thread did mention.   It's the stick to the bumper in front, as close as possible regardless attitude that we have problems with.    Again - this may be in the driving tuition - but it is time the young, newer drivers were instructed otherwise.

A lot of the views and our comments are based on our own experiences of driving in France;  I have found, though, that when I've made a bit of a mistake (wrong lane in strange town) - and I hold my hand up to apologise and make it obvious I'm aware I'm in the wrong there is generally more patience and tolerance - I've seldom had drivers sounding their horns at me.   Mind you, I do find an airy wave of the hand and a few air-kisses being blown around from me helps I'm sure.   (As maybe does the long blonde hippy dippy hair-style !!)

Chessie

[nomoss]

Regarding the older generation, say 55 to 65 years old, in France not having any respect for the rules, ALBF, I think they grew up in a completely different era, and maybe learnt to drive rather later in life than those now in their 30's, with a different attitude to learning, but still long before there was the present combination of powerful cars and fast roads, and very little traffic.

When I first drove in France, in the early 60's, I got the impression that many people hadn't even seen a car, let alone driven one [:)], and there was very little traffic. I also remember driving the length of France from the Spanish border to the Channel on the Autoroutes for the first time in 1987 on an almost empty road for most of the way, albeit in November. Previously we had used the RN's, too mean to pay the tolls.

The current system of driving schools doesn't seem to provide a good grounding for safe and considerate drivers either. I was told that pupils have to rack up a certain number of hours under tuition on the road, but this includes time spent sitting in a car with other pupils whilst they take turns at the wheel. Maybe someone can confirm or refute this?

I feel that involving family or friends in the learning process is much better than relying solely on professional driving schools, and would produce better drivers.

I am rather biased in this respect, as I was first taught to drive a tractor, then an Austin 7, together with the friend who owned it, by an A7 enthusiast. Later our next door neighbour allowed me to drive him one summer in his MG Magnette for many hundreds of miles around outer London, to call on large companies he wanted to supply. I remember spending an hour or more maneuvering around a car park at the Ford factory in Dagenham, practicing reversing and parking.

I was never bored by this, and passed my test in a friend's Morris 18, a huge car for that time, which rather surprised the examiner when I showed up in it.

[alittlebitfrench]

Right.....

Normoss, in the 70"s , thirty thousand + people died each year on French roads. Look it up. 30 k is mind boggling.

Tom and Brit, French driving standards is a hot topic for the French. There is literally a story every day on the news talking about mortality rates and accidents.

Why has the speed limit been reduced ?

To say there is not a problem is quite silly when the French are the first to admit that there is.

[Tom 58]

I am rather biased in this respect, as I was first taught to drive a tractor, then an Austin 7, together with the friend who owned it, by an A7 enthusiast.

That sort of rings a bell... my first was a Dennis ride-behind mower and my second car, after a Ford model Y, an A7 with a driver's seat which had an inflatable cushion.

[richard51]

Thanks nomoss - I'm older than the older generation!!

Driving in rural areas is definitely different to city environments. Around our hamlet in France 3 deaths on the roads in recent years and our neighbours still take the "safe" route when driving back from a night out! Attitude, no doubt, continued by the young generation.

Not the same in the UK - where we are anyways..

Cities the same the world over.

[Tom 58]

Roads are dangerous places and I never intended to suggest they weren't. As albf rightly says, fatalities on French roads in the early seventies were around 30,000 pa but it must be remembered that there was no maximum speed limit on many open roads then. Today the fatalities have tumbled to less than 4,000, which is significant progress. However, every death is, of course, one too many.

[nomoss]

[quote user="alittlebitfrench"] ...........

Normoss, in the 70"s , thirty thousand + people died each year on French roads ............ [/quote]

I don't need to look it up, I believe you.

That's what happened when people who did not have car driving/ownership in their culture took to driving, with inadequate training, in dreadful, poorly maintained cars, on bad roads with few or no speed limits, and inadequate or non-existent signage.

When I lived in France in 1962 and 63, I wondered why so many cars' tyres squealed on corners, and was told that some owners deliberately underinflated them, as it was thought to sound "sportif". And they were not just kids.

[BritinBretagne]

[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]Right.....

Normoss, in the 70"s , thirty thousand + people died each year on French roads. Look it up. 30 k is mind boggling.

Tom and Brit, French driving standards is a hot topic for the French. There is literally a story every day on the news talking about mortality rates and accidents.

Why has the speed limit been reduced ?

To say there is not a problem is quite silly when the French are the first to admit that there is.[/quote]

The overall standard of driving is no worse in France than in other similar European countries. To suggest that every journey on French roads is overkill in the extreme, as in Britain and elsewhere the vast majority of road users are responsible and safe. There are idiots on the road but there are idiots everywhere. To generalise like you do us ridiculous. Better road markings on French roads, especially along the verges would save more lives than a blanket speed limit reduction, look at the figures elsewhere, but no, it’s easier for you to blame the nation.

[richard51]

"The overall standard of driving is no worse in France than in other similar European countries".

Is that opinion, fact, fake news or generalisation?

One fact. perhaps opinion, is that they drive on the wrong side of the road.

[nomoss]

I probably formed my generally poor opinion of French drivers in the late 1960's, when we lived in Algeria, and often drove between there and the UK,

Some French drivers don't seem to drive much better now, but the inbuilt safety systems in modern cars probably keep more of them alive.

I had driven far more in the UK than in France then , but mile for mile we saw more accidents, some of them unbelievably terrible, than anywhere else we have ever been. Indians, Arabs, and even South Americans seem to be more adept at escaping seemingly unavoidable accidents, but if they have right of way, the French plough straight in.

I haven't been to the UK for nearly ten years, so don't know what it's like there nowadays, but I don't remember having several tailgaters at 90+ kph, being overtaken when slowing behind a parking car in a 30 kph limit on a narrow village road, again on the exit of a roundabout, and another near miss when a parked car suddenly pulled out, all in just one 25 km trip to town, as happened on Tuesday.

The return journey was just as eventful and included a fist wave and shout from a man driving the wrong way up a one-way street, but the good drivers still outnumber the imbeciles.

 

[Théière]

Are they a nation of tailgaters? Giving more space between vehicles gives more thinking and action to avoid time. Far more time than the reduced speed limit will provide.

On the whole, French signage seems pretty good compared to other countries I have visited.

It will be illegal to use Mobile phones even beside the road when stationary very soon so the combination of mobile and tailgating will hopefully stop.

[nomoss]

French signage is now immeasurably better than in the times I mentioned, although you could find signs to Paris in even the most remote and distant village[:D]

It would be nice if they mentioned a distance more than occasionally, though.

Our worst problems were signs to our next town fixed to walls straight ahead, pointing to the right. Until we finally got used to the convention that this meant we should go straight on, we spent a lot of time wandering down narrow streets or muddy lanes looking for somewhere to turn around. They still catch me out from time to time.

[woolybanana]

One of the UK papers is reporting that an idea is being discussed to place a night curfew on young drivers as well as a speed limit. Seems eminently sensible.

As well as a ban on carrying more than one passenger, I think, and speed limiters on young people’s cars.

[Théière]

[quote user="woolybanana"]One of the UK papers is reporting that an idea is being discussed to place a night curfew on young drivers as well as a speed limit. Seems eminently sensible.

As well as a ban on carrying more than one passenger, I think, and speed limiters on young people’s cars.[/quote]

Go on, which one, the daily wail?

[woolybanana]

Indie three days ago?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-young-drivers-full-licence-road-safety-limits-restrictions-pmqs-a8198831.html

[Loiseau]

Well, I have driven almost 1,000km in France this week - including 600km this very day - and have to report that almost all drivers left a sensible distance between cars. Maybe the word has got around that forum members are after their blood...

[nomoss]

[quote user="Loiseau"]Well, I have driven almost 1,000km in France this week - including 600km this very day - and have to report that almost all drivers left a sensible distance between cars. Maybe the word has got around that forum members are after their blood...[/quote]

Was that on Autoroutes or on other roads?

[Loiseau]

Mostly autoroutes, to be fair, nomoss. And I have noticed that autoroute driving has improved a great deal in the last year or two.

[BritinBretagne]

That’s what I would say but unfortunately for many posters one or two fools, especially young ones, affect their long term memory and the majority of perfectly normal drivers are forgotten forever.