Last minute buying problem

[Graye]

Without going into all the ins and outs of the case, can anyone give me some ideas please?

We have bought a house, signed the initial contract and paid 10% deposit.  All this took place some months ago.  Now, with a few days to go until completion the sellers want another €3000 from us because apparently the sale figure agreed between them and the agent is apparently not the figure which was on the contract (all signed etc by all parties).

We do not want to be held to ransom on a point which is obviously solely between the seller and agent.  I do not see us paying this €3000 just to get the house either.  I can see that involving new contracts and many delays anyway but as I see it the point is that we would be paying an amount which is nothing to do with us and is solely between the seller and agent.  We were about the send the balance of the purchase price to the notaire but have have it on hold as we do not want it to get tangled up in the French legal system if, as the sellers have threatened, they pull out completely.

The information I need is this:

1.  If this really does all fall through, how easy would it be to get our initial deposit back from the notaire?

2. I understand we would be entitled to an equivalent amount plus damages from the seller.  Would we need to take legal action to get this ourselves or how is this dealt with?

 

Thanks in advance for any help!

[woolybanana]

To be hard, the contract is king if it was signed in front of the notaire and is a full compromis. You hold all the cards I think here

I suspect that the agents or notaires fees got mixed up somewhere in the asking price you agreed on and someone did not check.

The notaire will probably try for a compromise. As to whether you accept is up to you.

On the other hand, if the vendors are going to be your neighbours, or close by, then try to meet them half way perhaps.

If you take the other route, check the house before you sign in case the verdors have chosen to remove and fixtures and fittings (including fireplaces) out of sheer annoyance. There have been cases.

[Graye]

Thanks for that.  The contract was not signed in front of a notaire, it's the initial contract which was emailed to us.  We signed it and so did the vendors and a copy then went to the Notaire.  It does however specify the sale price, the amount of the deposit and various pieces of information about what would happen should either side pull out after the 7 day period (long passed).

The sellers are in fact an English and they have not contacted us directly about this so their problem is, as you say, to do with a break down in communications with the agent.  They are moving back to the UK and have already been over to empty the house this weekend.  I can only assume that it has been left in decent order but we will check it should we actually be able to proceed.

I'm not sure how I would feel about the Notaire trying to bring in a compromise in view of the signed contracts.  There would presumably be an small increase in his fee too?  The sellers will, should they now go ahead, do their signing by proxy so there will not be much room for negotiation in front of the Notaire.   To be honest we are not at all happy about being held over a barrel at the last minute because of a problem which is nothing to do with us.  I am assuming a "worst case scenario" and am interested to know where we stand with the intital deposit etc.  We are now walking a tightrope as we will presumably need to be there on the off-chance they send the signed proxy at the last minute.  On the same basis we presumably also need to have the balance with the notaire for the same reason.  Fortunately I have not booked removals etc yet otherwise I could also see a situation where we had a lorry load of possessions with nowhere to put them as an added problem.  I also need to book ferries for ourselves but fortunately it is now a time of year when that can be dealt with at the last minute.

I thought the French system did away with the last minute pull-out situation which could arise in the UK but this seems worse!

[Panda]

Hi

It would interesting to know who has contacted you and how, I think you have as Wooly said all the cards in your hand.  The french system does guard against such changes and this seems most out of the ordinary.  The french market is slow right now and if these sellers lose you then they could be waiting months if not a year plus for another sale so I think you should stand firm, you've agreed a price and that's what you should pay, any issue between the agent and seller is just that and not your problem.

I would call the notaire (or get someone to do it for you if your french isn't up to it) and get his/her take on it. 

Panda

[Graye]

Thanks Panda.  The contact about the problem was via the agent.  They asked us to sign a revised contract last week.  When we asked why the problem was explained, they had apparently emailed the seller with certain figures at the negotiation stage but had agreed the sale price with us as another figure.  This was carried on to the contract which we signed and therefore the dispute is firmly between the seller and agent.  We told the agent this who actually agreed with us.  They said they would sort things out with the seller.

This all came to a head today when the agent told us the sellers had been over this weekend, emptied the house (we have negotiated some items separately and as far as I know there is no problem about this, they sent us texts checking what we wanted whilst they were there) but refused to sing the proxy forms.  I suspect there has been bad-feeling and disagreements whilst they were there too and nothing ahs beenr esolved between them.

I think we will contact the notaire today just to be sure he has our position clearly explained.  The one thing we do not want is for anyone to say it was actually US who backed out, if things turn out that way.  We are ready and willing to sign etc but only in the figures we initially agreed and signed up to.

[Panda]

I think that would be for the best, do let us know how it turns out.

Panda

[Graye]

Sorry, in my panic I had forgotten the initial questions I thought someone could answer!

These were:

1.  If this really does all fall through, how easy would it be to get our initial deposit back from the notaire?

2. I understand we would be entitled to an equivalent amount plus damages from the seller.  Would we need to take legal action to get this ourselves or how is this dealt with?

Does anyone know what the process would be?

[powerdesal]

[quote user="Graye"]

  We signed it and so did the vendors and a copy then went to the Notaire.  I

[/quote]

I would hazard a guess that your statement (part) above is the crunch point. You signed, they signed and the price was specified in the contract, they have made a mistake, their cost. Thats the nature of a contract and why contract law exists, and why contracts should be very closely read and understood. Its also presumably why there is a "cooling off" period to allow for second thoughts.

[Panda]

Hi

I would think getting your deposit back 'should be' straight forward if, as you say it is very clear that the deal was broken by them, not you.  As for getting the seller portion and damages, this would likely need to go to court and so could take a long time as I understand it. 

Panda

 

[woolybanana]

I reckon they'll moan and stick with it;

Your deposit should be with the notaire who can hand it back. If the agent has it, that is not legal I think.

How you get damages from the seller who is now in UK on a French contract I am not sure of. Action in the French courts.

If push comes to shove, the contract may be enforcable in UK. The notaire should be able to point you in the right direction there

[Gluestick]

Depending on the value agreed for the sale, the amount the agent will normally receive would normally be far more than the disputed sum.

Let the agent's suffer the loss since it is apparently their problem.

The contract was engrossed under French law and France is the place for any litigation.

However, since both the Notaire and the immobiliere are bonded by insurance under French law and since the notaire is in fact a public servant who is effectively employed by the French government, you should have little trouble recovering your deposit.

Taking action for any consequential losses is a wholly different matter and you would need to consult a French lawyer and if the matter did finally proceed to court, instruct an advocat to represent you as well.

The agent is trying it on to regain their lost commission!

Stand firm!

 

[geordie girl]

Exactly the same thing happened to us back in march. The amount asked for by the agent from us was 12 hundred euros, one week before we were due to move in. We refused point black to pay and then got a phone call saying the agent and seller had sorted it.

The seller reduced his price by 600 euros and the agent reduced same amount.

I'm not telling you to do the same as us but just letting you know that it does happen. good luck

[ebaynut]

If the agent had worked the figures out incorrectly and found he had overcharged you by 3000 euro's, I wonder if they would have refunded this amount back to you?

It would be interesting to see if anyone has had this scenario happen to them.

I wont wait for a reply [blink]

[PaulT]

Do not pay any more than specified in the Compris.

 

As far as I am aware, if the seller has signed (and there is no cooling off period for the seller) then they are legally committed to the sale.

Any problems are between the agent and seller.

If signing the Acte is very soon then perhaps you do need to transfer the money to the Notaire so that you have met all your obligations.

Paul

[Gluestick]

The final payment to the Notaire only needs paying on the day that the Acte de Vente is signed.

In the specific circumstances of this sale, I would definitely not make the payment beforehand!

Nothing preventing you from asking for a draft copy of the Acte, prior to the day of signing!

In fact, rather than transfer our last payment by Telegraphic Transfer (on which the Notaires normally insists) we paid by Bank Draft at the time, since the bank, CA, had fluffed the final arrangements and I spent a worrying time with the manager -  a charming man who speaks no English! -  as he telephoned the regional HO at Arras, to obtain clearance for the money and he then signed and issued the draft on the spot! 

Which we took to the completion "Ceremony"!

 

[Will]

It is what is said on the contract that counts. The contract is a legal document and cannot be altered without the agreement of all concerned. If the figure on the contract is not what the seller wanted, then the seller should not have signed. If the agent put forward the wrong figure, which could have happened, then the seller should have read the contract and got it corrected before signing, not after. If there is a dispute it would seem to be between the seller and the agent, not you, from what you have said.

WB is nearly correct, if agents have a secure account for holding clients' money then they can legally hold the deposit - though as there is no benefit to them, and a lot of potential problems, in holding deposits, even agents will often recommend that all money is paid to the notaire. There should not be any problem with getting back the deposit, though you may have to chase the notaire, they are not always quick with refunds. As to the question of damages, then unless you can agree a figure with all concerned then it would probably need to go to a tribunal which could be time-consuming, to say the least, and possibly costly.

By the way, it is interesting that P2 says the 'cooling off' period does not apply to the seller. I posted that the other day, based on the experience of a close acquaintance, and was told by another user that I was wrong - the seller has a similar period to the buyer. I am still not convinced, and it doesn't apply in this case, but I think I should flag up the possible doubt.

[Graye]

Just thought I would update you on what happened here.

The house has now been signed over to us, we paid nothing more, the sellers got their €3000 in a separate deal from the agent and everyone went away happy.  I understand the sellers were particularly happy as the €3000 did not form part of the sale and they escaped some taxes somewhere along the line.

So it all ended very well.  And we are on our way next Friday!

[Gluestick]

Good news!

Just shows how one has to stick out at times for what has been already agreed.

In future, no doubt, that immobiliere will pay more attention to their figures!

Good luck and much happiness in your new house.

 

[nectarine]

Graye, great news that it is sorted.  I've been particularly interested in this since we signed our compromis - as sellers - and the notaire took great pains to tell us that our buyers had certain rights to pull out, 7-day retraction and all that, or if they couldn't get a mortgage, etc., but the notaire said that we, as sellers, could not pull out of the contract once we had signed it.  In fact, the only way we could stop the sale was for one of us to die!!!! 

Actually I thought the whole scenario sounded very dodgy and that it was the estate agent's fault which he was trying to foist onto you.  Rather dodgy dealing, actually.

Anyway, good luck in your new house and with your move.  Our best wishes to you for a happy new life in France.

[AnOther]

Nice to hear of the happy conclusion so congratulations and I'm sure we all hope you enjoy your new home.

Just to address the point about sellers and 7 days cooling off, I'm pretty certain that once the Compromis is signed the seller has no such option.

I can't quote you actual law on the subject but is it not also the case that when a property is put up for sale via an Immo the seller enters into a binding contract to sell if the asking price is offered ?

As a safeguard I believe there may be some inherent Force Majeure clauses which would allow them to withdraw unconditionally, a sudden death in the family for instance or other major calamity, but otherwise they cannot simply withdraw without penalty.

 

[AnOther]

[quote user="nectarine"]or if they couldn't get a mortgage, etc.[/quote]Only if written in the Compromis as a "Clause Suspensive" and they have to prove that that they have properly tried to get one and been declined.

[AnOther]

[quote user="nectarine"]or if they couldn't get a mortgage, etc.[/quote]Only if written in the Compromis as a "Clause Suspensive" and they have to prove that that they have properly tried to get one and been declined.

There it goes again with the double post thing..........!