woolybananasbrother Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 ...when it is blonde and blue eyed and Daddy was no there. There is so much that France has to face up to which is slowly coming out anbd being digested as the generation most closely concerned fades away. Probably better than a national bloodletting.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1035804/Sleeping-enemy-New-book-claims-Frenchwomen-started-baby-boom-Nazi-men-Vichy-regime.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 And this comes as a shock to who?TF1 the France history channel, since when? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybananasbrother Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 The shock is to a certain age mentality of French people I suspect Cat, just as the same would be said of the shock to the British when it was learned that the number of ladies consorting was Yanks was very high. But exhibitions do focus the mind, don't they? Bring stuff out from under the carpet so to speak.France is very slowly coming to terms with that difficult time, as the concerned generation disappears, but it still makes waves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 But the term collaboration horizontale has been used for years to describe the frolicking of young French women with the occupying forces. Many of these woman had their heads publicly and forcibly shaved afterwards, so hard to pretend that the French were not fully aware of it at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybananasbrother Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 Locally yes, but nationally, like the degree of true collaboration and the deportation of the Jews, I think France was/is in denial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybananasbrother Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 Well, there are of course different types of collaboration just as there were different types of resistance. (See Marianne in Chains by Gildea, I think). These range from minimal collabo for survival to full cooperation and support. Most people had to collaborate to a certain extent if only because they needed to live. Others were more enthusiastic. The interesting areas of course are those which represent infrastructure (ie fonctionnaiees) and the police. There were grey areas here (excluding say some monsters as Barbie) such as the police rounding up people for deportation etc. or arresting people for stealing food. Did they try to turn a blind eye, did they carry out orders fully? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Katie Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Pétain and the Vichy regime willfully collaborated with the German occupation to a high degree. The French police and the state Milice (militia) organized raids to capture Jews and others considered "undesirables" by the Germans in both the northern and southern zones.Source...........Wikipedia NOT the Daily Mail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 None of this is new. Most French adults know about Pétain's régime, Laval and the Milice.What is new is the representation of people not suffering during the occupation, as shown in the recent exhibition of André Zucca's pictures in Paris.Zucca was paid to provide propaganda material.The idea that, for some, the occupation could have been anything but oppressive is challenging.http://www.paris-bibliotheques.org/livre379.htmlhttp://www.rue89.com/oelpv/quand-paris-rend-hommage-a-andre-zucca-photographe-collabo (the comments below this article are also worth reading) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Katie Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Claire, I watched the film deux femme a Paris the other night OK so the writer was a Jewish Tunisian, the same as the leading character but the screening of such a film indicates the French acknowledgement of their history. But, it is history. It is a shame many (including me) feel the need to apologise for the actions of their forefathers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybananasbrother Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 It has always been perfectly clear that, whilst they may have had some hardship, some of the French farming neighbours in my former village certainly did not suffer. Anxiety and fear of the unknown perhaps, but they never went short of food and their relationships with the germans were correct (French word?)Katie, would you apply that to slavery or apartheid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybananasbrother Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 [quote user="Puzzled"]Thank you for that explanation. So surely the full collaboration could only be conducted at a very high level by those nearest the Germans in relative positions of power etc and as such perhaps it wasn't that widespread ? Or was it the denoucing of people by villagers that you think could have been more rife ? I am interested just not very well read yet on this aspect of the War.[/quote]Collaboration might be judged by the drgeee of voluntarism, even at a local level? Being forced to supply food at occupied rates might be acceptable but supplying food voluntarily and probably at a price would be collaboration, unless everyone does it, then it is ok but unspoken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Katie Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Katie, would you apply that to slavery or apartheid?Of course WB, this is where I am coming from. Jeeps, as a white Brit, I think I have a hell of a lot of apologising to do. [:(] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Animal Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Did you see Katie, they had your sunglasses! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybananasbrother Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 As a white Englishman who lived in South Africa as a youth I have nothing to apologize for at all.[6] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Katie Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Christine, they owe me an apology [:@] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 As a white Englishman who lived in South Africa as a youth I have nothing to apologize for at all.Seconded, I make no apologies for the actions of my ancestors, ask them to apologise if you can, but I can only apologise for MY actions and I have nothing to apologise for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Zoff Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Few of us can know for certain how we - or our parents - might have acted in similar circumstances. There were plenty of high-placed Brits willing to do a deal with Hitler to buy him off, and that was without the country actually having been overrun. (And a deal would have been done, but for Churchill's refusal to play ball.) Collaboration can take many forms. A lot of people profiteer in wars, in one way or another. It's easy 60 years later, with completely different life-styles, to stand in judgement when you will never be at risk of being placed in the same position as the condemned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzy Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 I'm sure your information is correct Katie, but I wouldn't use Wikipedia as a reference source, as it's a Wiki anyone can edited it and put what they like !Sorry, but like Judith, the librarian in me bursts out occasionally !Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybananasbrother Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 Wiki has improved a lot though and does at least carry warnings these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Animal Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 [quote user="Alan Zoff"] Few of us can know for certain how we - or our parents - might have acted in similar circumstances. There were plenty of high-placed Brits willing to do a deal with Hitler to buy him off, and that was without the country actually having been overrun. (And a deal would have been done, but for Churchill's refusal to play ball.) Collaboration can take many forms. A lot of people profiteer in wars, in one way or another. It's easy 60 years later, with completely different life-styles, to stand in judgement when you will never be at risk of being placed in the same position as the condemned. [/quote] Agreed Alan. None of us know what it was like and what people went through. Not everyone in France acted in the same way.We met a couple at a French cat loving family gathering. Of course the conversation turned to the cats and the husband of the couple, who was young during the War, said they were living in a flat in Paris with the cat loved by all the family. Yes, they were so hungry, after putting it off and putting it off, they ate their cat. This was of course shocking to us, but he said that you can't imagine what it was like and how hard it was just to survive.P.S. It's known that at that time there was hardly a cat to be seen in Paris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Off topic - sorry !Wiki pedia was called Wiked pedia by Valerie Singleton (here's one I made earlier) yesterday after she battled to get references to her being a lesbian (she is not) removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybananasbrother Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 Who is Valerie Singleton please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 What? Never heard of Blue Peter?http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/1118337.stm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybananasbrother Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 Ah, yes, I think I saw it once. Funny jingle, BBC Children's television. So, what did she do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/classic/bluepeter/presenters/singleton.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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