woolybanana Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 I have had this debate before in another context; my feelings are that Belgium (Wallonia) is a 'blame society' where the ideal is to transfer blame for anything to others and by the same token to avoid it oneself, because that implies a weakness and enables others to heap you with approbrium and to carry the can. Unlike Chinese society, where the idea is not to lose face or to make others do so.This permits lying and dishonesty.My take on French society, and the fact that there are no real terms for bullying is that it too is a blame society and that bullying is a standard and accepted part of culture, and not judged in the same way as in Anglo-Saxon cultures. Thus, employers bully their employees, administrations bully their clients and shops bully their customers, in every case the aim being to deny responsibility as this implies a wrong, which, in a heavily top down society cannot be admitted as it shows a faille which cannot exist. In other words, the State is believed to be perfect or perfectible. The corollary of this is a sacrifice of individuality, as to be successful one has to belong to something official, whether it be party or association, and to be outside is to be present the potential to be a victim as there is no protection from society.And lying is very common in France![6] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5-element Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Spot-on analysis, Wooly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 [kiss] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardener Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Perhaps someone can help me with a phrase that I have forgotten, it was said by a woman who had lived in France for a very long time, when the subject of manners was being discussed. We were discussing how there is a strict code engrained from a very young age, the bisouing, using vous and tu at the right times etc but that on other occasions there is what many anglo saxons would consider to be rude, eg the opening of a checkout at the supermarket and it is each man for themselves, waiting for someone to pass by in a narrow shopping aisle or country lane and there is no acknowledgement from them, or at a 4 way stop sign, there is an eagerness to be the first away without thought to who should be the first to pull away. The woman used an expression that I hadn't heard of at that time and she explained in english that it is part of the french psyche, to be first, more important, not to yield and that whilst such behaviours may appear rude to us, they don't to the French*. It wasn't said in a derogatory manner ( she was married to a french man ) and the word arrogance was ruled out when I was trying to understand her meaning. Is there a french phrase or idiom that encapsulates the attitude she described? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Animal Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Chacun pour soi?Ne pas se laisser marcher sur les pieds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Spot on Woolybanana.My French pal who is well aware of the differnces between the UK service culture and the French lack of it is actually treated with the same disdain by the commerciants around here as I am despite him being having a totally disarming charm, being a terrific negotiator and a fidéle client of many years who spends loads of money with them, he is always at pains to point out that it isnt just me or that I am an immigrant, everyone is treated equally (badly) around here.He says that the moment you enter a shop or business here in Picardie there is a presumption of guilt on your part and you are treated as if you have gone in with the sole purpose of ****ing them over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5-element Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Christine has got it. In a similar vein, there is also "Il ne faut pas se laisser faire!" Or, "Faut pas s'laisser faire!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 opprobrio est alicui si KICKEROO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted July 16, 2011 Author Share Posted July 16, 2011 I have to agree with WB etc, although it pains me to do so [:P] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardener Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 [quote user="Christine Animal"]Chacun pour soi?Ne pas se laisser marcher sur les pieds? [/quote]Thank you for those ( and 5 element too), the second phrase is a nicer , more diplomatic way of putting it perhaps? The first I can more readily identify such behaviours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 I have certainly been told at the accueil in shops in France that everyone lies. Been given suspicious looks when I have said I was being truthful, what with my little smile and look of hope, just to help the proceedings along you understand, and have often been given the benefit of the doubt. Which I should have been incidentally, as it goes against the grain to try it on.It's true all these things are taught and/or simply picked up when children. That is why I always take all the bisous and bonschewer's with a pinch of salt, they are learned politesse and someone quite possibly could half run you over with a caddy if you are in their way, just after being ever so friendly.I remember a very nice english bloke we used to know and would go skiing with. I soon picked up that to get on the ski lift, I had to keep moving forward, with wriggles and wiggles and a little shouldering too would help to get to that goal. I could be up and down a slope several times and he would only be half way down the queue, commenting how rude everyone was (me included[:$]). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Mmm food for thought.I am off to the Arab market now, there you absoluteley have to have to charge your way through like a rugby player, nobody bats an eyelid although why people with extended familes still insist on walking abreast holdinh hands or pick the most narrow passages to have a gathering I dont quite know,it dose lend to the flavour though.My worry is that even though it goes against the grain I am now used to pushing my way through, i might well end up being decked for doing it in the UK.I completely agree about the learned politesse having zero value, even after the loudest of diusputes or after having been completed shafted by whomever the victim and the aggressor will usually part with "une bonne journée" etc. I try to use "je vous remercie, - pour rien" but it never seems to be understood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Animal Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I think I prefer that to a big friendly smile, very friendly conversation, knowing all about each other in five minutes, then a nasty remark as soon as your back is turned. At least there is no false smarm.It takes all sorts. Of course there are those who rush to get there first with their trolleys. But then they wait patiently without complainng when someone chats at the caisse or can't find their check book as the credit card won't work. Also, I usually have a very big trolley full overflowing with pet food, etc. and often there is someone just behing me clutching two or three items in their arms, quite prepared to wait. I always tell them to pass in front of me and they uually quite timidly say "no, it's all right" and when I insist they finally sneak past as if they feel a little guilty and thank me again when they have paid. Then often another one turns up and is ready to stand patiently behind. Once I let three through and it became quite a joke! [:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 [quote user="Christine Animal"] But then they wait patiently without complainng when someone chats at the caisse or can't find their check book as the credit card won't work. [/quote][6]I thought that that was obligatoire in France, get to the check out and then start looking for your money or whatever or simply pass the time of day. That along with the check out personnel working at the speed of striking slugs, or maybe that is just where I used to live. I forgot one thing one day and went back in. The Maire and his horrible wife had a trolley stacked up high and I had one thing. They looked at me with my one thing and my ready money and didn't bat an eye lid, and put all their stuff through and I waited patiently. IF they had done the decent thing, I would probably have perdue connaissance. Absolutely awful people the pair of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Animal Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Get behind me next time Idun! [:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I let people through too, I do it all the time. But I never just let them through now, I ask if that is all they have, as it has happened that someone has been stood there with a lettuce and bag of sugar for example and I've let them in before me and then other family members turn up with baskets, or even a trolley. And I don't like being taken for a mug either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 I like 'tyranniser' although I don't think it translates the full range of 'bully' as I defined it in my OP it will do very well for the situation in which I wish to use it.There are one or two really dreadful old women in my nursing home who treat the people who serve us meals and keep the place clean as if they were dirt. These women can't answer back, as they are afraid of getting into trouble with their employers, so I speak up for them.I don't think this is specifically French though but I have to answer in French...As Brassens sang "Vous les cons âgés,les cons usagés,les vieux consLe temps ne fait rien à l'affaire.Quand on est con, on est con! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchie Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Tu connais cette chanson Norman ?? Excellente référence ! [:)]Yes, tyranniser is close to bullying.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LAiffricaine Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 [quote user="NormanH"] Le temps ne fait rien à l'affaire.Quand on est con, on est con![/quote]Quand on est con, on est con is more when one behaves like un trou du cul, one remains un trou du cul ... bully ... I'd say un tyran, une brute, un voyou, un muffle (though that's mild and would describe a man with the manners and graces of a warthog) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Aren't these women harridans? Vieille sorciere? haridelle?Wouldn't, vieille sorciere tres mechant, cover very nicely what you should say to the vieille biques?I'm glad that you are standing up for the staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 It was something like:Madame, vous êtes faible .On s'en fout de vos caprices. Assumez votre situation et taisez vous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 AND, what was the reaction?I think that they will have been highly offended, and if they were, well GOOD! you did a good thing there!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 She was not a happy bunny, but has calmed down.The staff have thanked me in one or two quiet comments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Ah good, I am delighted to hear that. I'll not say that vieux schnocks cannot be 'difficult', but I would say that vieille biques are usually worse[Www] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LAiffricaine Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 [quote user="idun"] ... vieille biques ... [/quote] a.k.a. : punaises de sacristie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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