BIG MAC Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Because (at least to a certain extent) music is logical and predictable. French (to me at least) looks very like the instructions for a dvd player....and I am a bloke..I fear this is going to be an uphill struggle as I can't delegate the learning bit off to the wife without giving her the whip hand! laughing here as the Mrs Mac already can speak a fair bit ..yes ...she can speak a bit....and at length...takes her half an hour to say goodbye on the phone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted November 17, 2014 Author Share Posted November 17, 2014 [quote user="ericd"]........ You like to make it complicated hm ? ....Afin qu'il puisse boire l'eau du robinet, j'ai ete lui chercher un verre ....... Afin de lui donner a boire, j'ai ete lui chercher un verre .... That's all I can come up with ....[/quote]Ventodue, I see that ericd's example above, strengthens your explanation:In order that he could have a drink of water from the tap, I found him etc: subject changes and the subjunctive is used.;In order to (so that I could) give him a drink of water, I found him etc: same subject so either infinitive or subjunctive is possible. Could therefore also say Afin que je puisse lui donner etc.I WAS paying attention, so have I understood correctly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Am I being too simple, or isn't it just the simple difference between "in order to do sth " and "in order that sth could be done"Anyway, it's probably the tip of a very big iceberg, once you start questioning when to use afin de (or que) and pour or pour que.There are so many ways to avoid using the subjunctive that it's almost possible to make it redundant. Like using devoir instead of "il faut que" ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted November 18, 2014 Author Share Posted November 18, 2014 I totally agree about the subjunctive. I avoid it like the plaque and only use it when it slips out before I could stop myself!You could also use besoin de................job done!Still the teacher keeps saying that French people use the subjunctive a lot in everyday speech.I don't mind puisse and fasse and I suppose soit is also unavoidable. It's when it comes to other words like ait; at which point I switch off and refuse to engage.There is a sort of tacit acknowledgement in my class that I don't "do" grammar and people roll their eyes and look at me whenever a grammar exercise is suggested. I am truly the butt of jokes in such instances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 I don't think people do use the subjunctive that much. I know that when I do use it (not often) people sometimes look at each other with a slightly quizzical "Ooh, hark at her" expression.I'd do a smiley but I'm on my iPad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericd Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 [quote user="You can call me Betty"] I don't think people do use the subjunctive that much. I know that when I do use it (not often) people sometimes look at each other with a slightly quizzical "Ooh, hark at her" expression. I'd do a smiley but I'm on my iPad.[/quote]Il eusse fallu que tu aies ton laptop avec toi pour mettre des emoticons sur ta reponse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 See? see? Eric is being Monsieur clever-culottes! (Insert woot here) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ventodue Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 [quote user="You can call me Betty"]I don't think people do use the subjunctive that much. I know that when I do use it (not often) people sometimes look at each other with a slightly quizzical "Ooh, hark at her" expression. [/quote]Same as in English. Use 'may' and 'might', and some people think you're being ever so 'la-de-da'. But if you wanna speak yer language proper, then ..P.s one very common use of the subjunctive in French: "Il faut que j'y aille." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Even I use that one ventodue, had not idea there was a subjunctive involved, it's just what people say.[:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Ventodue, I guess it IS an issue of register, and common, everyday expressionslike "Il faut que j'y aille" and "il faut que je fasse " are commonplace but easily avoidable. That's what "devoir" is for...in my book! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Betty, aren't there regional differences with these expressions, as where I lived 'il faut que je fasse and j'y aille' were in very common usage. I noticed over the years that where I lived, for example, those that were serving me, always said the simple 'ca c'est tout' or 'avec ca', but in other parts of France, there were other little expressions that meant the same thing, asking if I wanted anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Not a scooby, Idun. I always think "avec ceci?" Which seems to crop up in shops round me is a bit Hyacinth Bucket, but it's obviously not wrong or anything. I honestly don't take a huge amount of notice in routine conversation of how people say stuff, unless they're saying something that's completely new to me. I've got a couple of friends who will pull me up if I start using expressions which seem to be a bit Charentais or just lazy grammar, like "Un ami a Jean" instead of "de Jean" or "rembaucher" for going back to work, which someone told me was a local expression, but frankly they could tell me anything..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericd Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 [quote user="You can call me Betty"] "Un ami a Jean" instead of "de Jean" or "rembaucher" for going back to work, which someone told me was a local expression, but frankly they could tell me anything.....[/quote] C'est un copain "a" Jean or C'est un copain "de" Jean ....both commonly heard across France. Might not be grammatically correct but hey ho. As for "rembaucher" which stands for re-embaucher as in returning to work (let's say at lunch time), it's an expression from southern france. In/around Paris we say " A qu'elle heure commences-tu ton travail" in the south .." As qu'elle heure tu embauche?"Same goes for plastic bags at Supermarket. In the South they are called "poches (meaning poches en plastique)" and in the north "sacs (also meaning sacs en plastique)"". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted November 20, 2014 Author Share Posted November 20, 2014 We say "embauche" AND we say "chocolatine"[:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Oh, I "get" them all...but some of my friends are more Lynn Truss than others ?Meanwhile, I still need to fine the elusive explanation to what, for me, has proved the unanswerable question..I've even asked it here a couple of times, to no avail: Why do we say "la Saint Sylvestre" or la Saint Louis, or perm any one from hundreds? Nothing agrees with anything, and all saints are la regardless of gender... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 I thought that it was 'la' because it was a fete, rather than the name of the saint.I still don't understand why there is a Hotel le France, it has been explained, but my little brain cannot cope with such explanations and hearing another explanation will just make me lose the will to live.....[blink] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 It's not that, Idun, 'cos you have LA fete de LA Saint Sylvestre.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew44 Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Re : plastic bags - chez nous on dit " un pochon" !Re : clocking in/out, one of my early memories of life in Saint Nazaire was in the car driving past the Atlantic Shipyard. My wife said 'Ne passe pas par là , c'est la débauche aux Chantiers' meaning of course that there was a huge jam as 3500 workers all left for home at the same time !I still wonder what kind of revelry that was !@+Andrew44380 Pornichet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 Andrew, I MUCH prefer your interpretation [:D][:D][:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericd Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 [quote user="You can call me Betty"] .....I've even asked it here a couple of times, to no avail: Why do we say "la Saint Sylvestre" or la Saint Louis, or perm any one from hundreds? Nothing agrees with anything, and all saints are la regardless of gender...[/quote] It's because you didn't ask the right people or that I wasn't on the Forum at the time .....[8-|] By saying La St Sylvestre or even La St Eric as in my case on 18th May, it's "la fete" that you are celebrating and not the person. People wish you "Bonne Fete" on the day. Fete being a feminin word you end up by saying "Bonne fete de St Sylvestre" ..... Hope this answers your question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I ask very tentatively......... does that mean that I had got this right? It is about the fete and not the St's day. If so, all I can say is ' well I never '[:-))] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericd Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Yes Idun. Your explanation was correct. A pat on the back to you ! ........ You see, french language isn't that complicated when you put your mind to it ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loiseau Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Ah, but not always THAT easy, Ericd!I was quizzing some French friends the other day because they had referred to their car as "un Kangoo". I said I thought car makes were always feminine (presumably because of LA voiture). They thought for a bit, as they were certain it was "UN Kangoo", then said it was because the Kangoo model is UN monospace!Come to think of it though, Eric, could it be the MODELS of cars are always masculine, while the MAKES are feminine?Une CitroënUn Saxoperhaps?Angela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 [:D]ericd............ best if I simply try and listen rather than 'think' about it, if I 'think', I get completely confused![Www]ps:and it is very complicated[blink] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericd Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 [quote user="Loiseau"] ........... Come to think of it though, Eric, could it be the MODELS of cars are always masculine, while the MAKES are feminine? Une Citroën Un Saxo perhaps? Angela[/quote] If it was that easy ....Citroen: Une Saxo !! ; Une C4, C5 C6 etc...Peugeot: une 404, 505, 606 ...... mais wait for it ....Un Zx (an older version of the 104)Renault: Un Kangoo ...yes but why ??? As their Monospace previous was Une Espace (even though the word itself is masculin) ..... I give up..... [8-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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