Norman History

[Cassis]

I've just read an interesting potted early history of Normandy on a travel website.  Here is what they had to say:

Joy-riding Vikings arrived in northwestern Nomandy (sic) 1,000 years ago with plans

to lay siege to the area, but remained to begin new lives abroad. One, William

the Conquerer, expertly staved off attacks from the ever-present English, and

his body was consecrated at the Abbaye

aux Hommes in coastal Caen,

the seat of his government. Later, and along the Seine, a square in Rouen

is where Joan of Arc, declared a heretic, was burned at the stake, and the Musee

Jeanne-d'Arc commemorates her short but influential life.

There's something nagging, but I just can't put my finger on what is missing from this account ... I'm sure there are one or two details missing. [Www]

[ali-cat]

Nope - think they covered everything.  Did I mention that I failed history O'Level?!! [:$]

[Dick Smith]

Be fair, the only thing missing is any depth or historical accuracy...

The Normans arrived in Normandy c1000 - no.

William 'staved off English attacks' - no.

The seat of his government was Caen - what about Rouen?

Jeanne d'Arc burned in Rouen - correct.

One out of four!

[Cassis]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]

William 'staved off English attacks' - no.

[/quote]

Could this be a reference to when Harold and William had a wet haddock face slapping contest, which later inspired the famous Monty Python sketch?

I'm sure there's something else missing about William having a trip to England to have a word with Harold about the fish thing, but Harry was away watching Chelsea play, or something of the sort.

[Dick Smith]

That was when he went to have a little word with Harald Hardraada who played an away fixture at Stamford Bridge and lost.

There is actually a theory that William may have visited England some time in the 1060s which led to Harold (Godwinsson, later King Harold II) visiting Normandy in 1064. I don't think any fish were involved.

[Beryl]

Did Harold Godwinsson get washed up on the shore and have to swear allegiance to William or was that just a pre urban myth?

[Frederick]

They missed out he was a bast..ard ....and not just for upsetting the afternoon nap of the good people of Hastings  

[Cassis]

Billy boy is also supposed to have chopped the hands off the good folk of Alençon who took the mick out of him for his being the barstard son of a common girl when he besieged the town (possibly by hanging animal skins from the city walls? I could check but I'm tired!). 

[Dick Smith]

[quote user="beryl"]Did Harold Godwinsson get washed up on the shore and have to swear allegiance to William or was that just a pre urban myth?[/quote]

It was a bit more complicated than that, but not much. No myth.

[Beryl]

[quote user="Cassis"]Billy boy is also supposed to have chopped the hands off the good folk of Alençon who took the mick out of him for his being the barstard son of a common girl when he besieged the town (possibly by hanging animal skins from the city walls? I could check but I'm tired!). 
[/quote]

I think he did some nasty things in Exeter too. Not a chap to cross!

[Dick Smith]

His mother (to whom his father was, indeed, not married) was the daughter of a tanner, hence the hides.

I don't know what he was supposed to have done to Exeter, but the effects of his harrowing of the North could still be detected in the 19th century.

His chronicler said that he was 'skilled at bending men to his will'.

[Hoddy]

He gave Derby a bit of a going over.

"In the borough of Derby before 1066 lived 243 burgesses.

Now there are 100 burgesses ....... 103 residences, which used to pay dues, are unoccupied."

Hoddy

[Beryl]

I can't remember either [:$] but I seem to recall that he made an example of them ( residents of Exeter) in some shape or form. I think I got this idea from a recent (ish) school text book,[:$][:$] I will try and find out more.

[Dick Smith]

Derby will have been the result of the Northern destruction following the Northern Earls' rebellion. There was something similar in the west, but the details elude me at the moment. If I can raise the strength to cross the room I'll look it up...

[Missy]

[quote user="Cassis"]I've just read an interesting potted early history of Normandy on a travel website.  Here is what they had to say:

Joy-riding Vikings arrived in northwestern Nomandy (sic) 1,000 years ago with plans to lay siege to the area, but remained to begin new lives abroad. One, William the Conquerer, expertly staved off attacks from the ever-present English, and his body was consecrated at the Abbaye aux Hommes in coastal Caen, the seat of his government. Later, and along the Seine, a square in Rouen is where Joan of Arc, declared a heretic, was burned at the stake, and the Musee Jeanne-d'Arc commemorates her short but influential life.

There's something nagging, but I just can't put my finger on what is missing from this account ... I'm sure there are one or two details missing. [Www]
[/quote]

 

I know what's missing !!!

The Americans won the war and told Adolph to go home..... then they asked that Tom Hank geezer to go and save one of their soldiers... I think his name was Private Ryan ......

[;-)][Www]

[Dick Smith]

Exeter seems to have escaped quite lightly, according to the Oxford History (Stenton). In December 1067/January 1068 the town rebelled, having fortified their walls and refused to swear fealty. William marched on them with a combined Norman/English army, and the town withstood a siege of 18 days until it surrendered 'on terms'. Land was taken for a castle and the town was garrisoned, but does not seem to have been badly treated.

The events I was thinking of were landings by the sons of Harold II, which got nowhere.

The Northern rising, and subsequent harrowing of the North, was in 1069.

[Beryl]

Just found it ( I don't know, I move to France and spend Friday night engrossed in children's history books!)

Understanding History 1 Paul Shuter  " William took hostages and blinded them in front of the walls of the city of Exeter. But instead of frightening the people inside, this made them more determined to hold out.  It was 18 days before the city fell". It doesn't give a date but I think it was 1068.

It does seem that they got off lightly though.

[Gastines]

Perhaps I would be wrong to say that the Landed Gentry still control UK,even today. When you analyse the reasons they are the landed gentry, it's even more depressing. Lords,  Crusaders etc, when examined, they were a pretty cruel lot, all in the name of religious and personal  pursuit. Everyones view of History ssems to depend on which book you pick up and in which language. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

Must go,Coronation Street is on.

Regards.

[Will]

Gastines is right. The real. true and complete history according to the French is not the same real, true and complete history taught in England of course.

This is the version taught in one part of England:

King Harold was a ventriloquist
Not many people know
He used to work with animals
And he put on quite a show
People came in thousands
To see his tour de force
To see the great King Harold
With his hand up his hawk, on his horse.

He could talk while drinking water
He could talk while smoking cigs
But he had to keep his day job
'Cos he couldn't get many gigs
He went to fight the Norse
At Stamford Bridge near York
But he kept his hand in on the way
On his horse with his hand up his hawk.

Well, they beat the Norse quite easy
They gracefully gave in
But they wouldn't shake his hand
'Cos they knew where it had been.
And Harold was impressive
At the head of his victorious force
'Hello I'm Mr Ed,' he said
On his hawk with his hand up his horse.

He got a gig in Yorkshire
At a club in Batley, but he
Found the miners' welfares
Didn't want a royal Sooty.
They didn't like ventriloquists
And said so with brute force
And ejected poor King Harold
On his head with his hawk up his horse.

He gratefully went back south again
For he heard that Norman had landed
'Let's make haste for Hastings' he cried
Working his horse left handed.
His army marched past him in splendour
And the leader saluted the led
And in doing so suffered concussion
From the horse on his hand on his head.

Soon they got to Hastings
And the two armies got to grips
Harold was winning 2-1 at half time
And all without moving his lips.
'Who's in charge over there?' asked William
'It's not Harold, I've not seen him talk.'
And he glared at the King of the English
On his horse with his hand up his hawk.

'I'm being beaten bu a parrot,
Some bugger - shoot that bird'
But amid the tumult of battle
Only one of his archers heard.
It was Cosmo, the fairly accurate archer
Who heard his leader's shout
And aimed an arrow at the hawk
And was only a foot or so out.

It was one in the eye for Harold
Who immediately fell down dead.
For though Cosmo had aimed at the parrot
He'd hit Long John Silver instead.
William the Conqueror was furious
Cosmo's life was imperilled
He'd made a spectacle of himself
And a monocle of Harold.

And although William conquered the country
It's of Harold that people do talk
Ventriloquist king of England
On his horse with his hand up his hawk.

It was a sight to frighten the foreign
An English fighting force
Harold at the head of his army
With his hawk, and his hand up his horse.

(by Les Barker)

[Will]

This, of course, was the original by Mariott Edgar:

I'll tell of the Battle of Hastings,
As happened in days long gone by,
When Duke William became King of England,
And 'Arold got shot in the eye.
It were this way-one day in October
The Duke, who were always a toff,
Having no battles on at the moment,
Had given his lads a day off.

They'd all taken boats to go fishing,
When some chap in t' Conqueror's ear,
Said " Let's go and put breeze up the Saxons ";
Said Bill "By gum, that's an idea"
Then turning around to his soldiers,
He lifted his big Norman voice,
Shouting" Hands up who's coming to England."
That was swank 'cos they hadn't the choice

They started away about tea-time
The sea was so calm and so still
And at quarter to ten the next morning
They arrived at a place called Bexhill
King 'Arold came up as they landed-
His face full of venom and 'ate
He said "If you've come for Regatta
You've got here just six weeks too late."

At this William rose, cool but 'aughty,
And said-" Give us none of your cheek;
You'd best have your throne re-upholstered,
I'll be wanting to use it next week"
When 'Arold heard this 'ere defiance,
With rage he turned purple and blue,
And shouted some rude words in Saxon,
To which William answered" And you."

'Twere a beautiful day for a battle;
The Normans set off with a will,
And when both sides was duly assembled,
They tossed for the top of the hill.
King 'Arold he won the advantage,
On the hill-top he took up his stand,
With his knaves and his cads all around him,
On his 'orse with his 'awk in his 'and.

The Normans had nowt in their favour,
Their chance of a victory seemed small,
For the slope of the field were against them,
And the wind in their faces and all.
The kick-off were sharp at two-thirty,
And soon as the whistle had went
Both sides started banging each other
'til the swineherds could hear them in Kent.

The Saxons had best line of forwards,
Well armed both with buckler and sword
But the Normans had best combination,
And when half-time came neither had scored.
So the Duke called his cohorts together
And said "Let's pretend that we're beat,
Once we get Saxons down on the level
We'll cut off their means of retreat."

So they ran and the Saxons ran after,
Just exactly as William had planned,
Leaving 'Arold alone on the hill-top
On his 'orse with his 'awk in his 'and.

When the Conqueror saw what had happened,
A bow and an arrow he drew
He went right up to 'Arold and shot him.
He were off-side, but what could they do?
The Normans turned round in a fury,
And gave back both parry and thrust,
Till the fight were all over bar shouting,
And you couldn't see Saxons for dust.

And after the battle were over
They found 'Arold so stately and grand,
Sitting there with an eye-full of arrow
On his 'orse with his 'awk in his 'and

 

[powerdesal]

What a fabulous poem, very "Albert and the Lion-ish"

[Will]

Yes, the original was written by the same man responsible for The Lion and Albert and most of the monologues made famous by Stanley Holloway. The other one, which I have liked ever since I saw the author read it in a folk club, is a rather surreal take on this historical event, obviously based on the Marriott Edgar one. [:D]

[Dick Smith]

You might like this website of monologues:

http://www.monologues.co.uk/index2.htm

[cooperlola]

Missy, your comment about Tom Hanks etc reminds me of this excellent book, "Hollywood History of the World" by George Macdonald Fraser (more famously responsible for the "Flashman" series)

http://www.amazon.com/Hollywood-History-George-Macdonald-Fraser/dp/0449904385

A great take on the movies' reinvention of history.

[powerdesal]

Dick, thanks for that web site, I've almost been in tears reading some of those monologues, its an epic site [:D][:D][:D][:D]