ALERT CUCUMBERS

[Rabbie]

Contaminated water could be the source of the infection. Especially if used to wash the brean sprouts ready for sale.

[Théière]

From Sweet's how to make cleaning................& JK's vinegar link.

Use Vinegar to Clean Produce
In a 2003 study at the University of Florida, researchers tested disinfectants on strawberries contaminated with E. coli and other germs.  They found the vinegar mixture reduced bacteria by 90 percent and viruses by about 95 percent.”

 

[5-element]

Of course, when grown for commercial purposes, the germinated seeds are kept at a steady temperature of 37 C, which is ideal for bacteria to grow and multiply. With home-grown sprouts, that doesn't happen - around 20 degrees is the norm.

We still don't know how this strain of E.coli arrived... why there, and why only there?.. People have been sprouting seeds for hundreds of years all over the world, but this is a very rare strain of e.coli - so far....

 

What is the Co2 activating vector, PPP? Anyone who knows and understands exactly how sprouts are grown commercially, could you please explain it in lay terms???[:)] I really would like to know.

[Salty Sam]

[quote user="Théière"]

From Seet's how tomake cleaning................& JK's vinegar link.

Use Vinegar to Clean Produce
In a 2003 study at the University of Florida, researchers tested disinfectants on strawberries contaminated with E. coli and other germs.  They found the vinegar mixture reduced bacteria by 90 percent and viruses by about 95 percent.”[/quote]

But, that may only deal with the surface bacteria. If the bacteria is within the vegetable then it's a different story!

History reveals in many similar outbreaks, the infection could be sourced back to infected seed. 

[andyh4]

[quote user="Val_2"]Hygiene is very poor I find here in France. Just look at the number of men who have a pee outside and then go back to doing what they were before and no hand washing .[/quote]

 

Sorry to upset you Val, but have you seen the Frenchmen who do wash their hands?  More than 50% seem to do it before going for a pee, not after.

 

This is not a wind up  - honest.

[andyh4]

5E  Thanks for asking that I wondered what PPP was on about as well.

 

FWIW the orginal farmer who was suspected stated that he only used water and the seeds in his sprouting process.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="5-element"]

Of course, when grown for commercial purposes, the germinated seeds are kept at a steady temperature of 37 C, which is ideal for bacteria to grow and multiply. With home-grown sprouts, that doesn't happen - around 20 degrees is the norm.

We still don't know how this strain of E.coli arrived... why there, and why only there?.. People have been sprouting seeds for hundreds of years all over the world, but this is a very rare strain of e.coli - so far....

 

What is the Co2 activating vector, PPP? Anyone who knows and understands exactly how sprouts are grown commercially, could you please explain it in lay terms???[:)] I really would like to know.

[/quote]

Quote from further up the page...often chlorine dioxide gas which inactivates E-coli incredibly fast.

[pachapapa]

Les scientifiques allemands avancent désormais d’autres pistes, comme les centres de production de biogaz, où des déchets organiques auraient libéré de nouvelles bactéries. Ces déchets ont été utilisés comme engrais naturels, et les bactéries auraient survécu dans les plantations à cause du manque de pluie de ce printemps. Selon Bernt Schottdorf, responsable d’un laboratoire médical à Augsbourg, « il y a toutes sortes de bactéries qui n'existaient pas auparavant qui sont maintenant produites dans les bacs de fermentation. Elles produisent des hybrides, se mélangent les unes aux autres sans que l'on n'ait étudié ce qui se passe vraiment ». L’épidémie touche désormais près de 2000 personnes en Europe, et frappe en premier lieu le nord de l’Allemagne. Les hôpitaux de Hambourg, désormais débordés, sont relayés par des centres de soins dans les environs de la ville. Dans les hôpitaux concernés, les opérations non urgentes sont repoussés pour pouvoir accueillir les victimes d’E. coli.

Oh and CO2 a common product during fermentation in an anaerobic atmosphere.[I]

[5-element]

According to the latest Guardian article,    "it has not yet been established whether the seeds or the farm's water have been contaminated."

It is pretty crucial to home-growers to know if it is the seeds which are contaminated...

Oddly, the most information I can find on growing sprouts, turns out to be the much maligned Wikipedia (English):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprouting

and in French, this:

http://www.lexpress.fr/styles/saveurs/les-graines-germees-c-est-quoi-en-fait_1001286.html

[Christine Animal]

After the minced beef in the North, it now seems that the Bordeaux cases this week of  E. coli are due to the "graines germées" again (is that watercress in English?) as those in hospital all ate at the same place where it was scattered on soup.  They are now investigating into the origin of the graines.

L'intoxication à l'E. coli près de Bordeaux a été identifiée

 

[Clair]

[quote user="Christine Animal"]... the Bordeaux cases this week of  E. coli are due to the "graines germées" again (is that watercress in English?) ...[/quote]

Sprouted seeds can be anything from radish seeds to sprouted chickpeas.

They are widely sold in the fruit'n veg section of the supermarkets...

[5-element]

Wow.

I find it interesting (?) that the seeds were bought (from Jardiland) and that the fair organisers sprouted them themselves - presumably, in the same way as I do mine. So, done in an artisanal way rather than a large commercial company. It does seem, then, that the contamination might come from the seeds themselves, and that the sprouting procedure might not be concerned? And where did the seeds come from, before they were retailed by Jardiland??? Hopefully, same source as the seeds in Germany, as it would mean that there is only ONE source, rather than several...

I am now looking at the seeds in my cupboard, and at my sprouter, and wondering if I will ever feel I can use it all again. Sourcing the seeds, that must be the next move.

[Christine Animal]

http://fr.news.yahoo.com/un-cas-dinfection-par-e-coli-confirm%C3%A9-%C3%A0-092222767.html

"Ce sont ces graines germées de roquette, de moutarde et de fenouil, achetées chez Jardiland et élevées par les parents au centre de loisirs, qui sont à la source de la contamination".

"Ces graines ont servi à la fois d'ornement et ont été consommées dans des gaspachos. Lors de la kermesse, il y avait 120 personnes, six ont été atteintes, dont trois membres du personnel municipal"

Le secrétaire d'Etat à la Consommation, Frédéric Lefebvre, a précisé dans un communiqué que le fournisseur de ces graines était la société britannique Thompson&Morgan, basée à Ipswich. Il fait état de graines de fenugrec, de moutarde et de roquette.

Même si "le lien entre les symptômes et la consommation de ces graines n'est pas définitivement établi", il demande aux distributeurs concernés de suspendre sans attendre la commercialisation de ces produits.

 

[5-element]

Thompson & Morgan, [:'(]

I wonder where they got their seeds from.

And I see that there is confusion between fenouil (fennel) and fenugreek (fenugrec)[:(]

[NormanH]

There may be a European warning:

http://lci.tf1.fr/science/sante/2011-06/e-coli-l-infection-bordelaise-inquiete-l-europe-6551230.html

[Clair]

[quote user="5-element"]... I am now looking at the seeds in my cupboard, and at my sprouter, and wondering if I will ever feel I can use it all again. Sourcing the seeds, that must be the next move.[/quote]

Yep... Same here [:'(]

[Clair]

[quote user="5-element"]Thompson & Morgan, [:'(]

I wonder where they got their seeds from.

[/quote]

British seed firm 'linked to French E. coli outbreak'

E.coli: consumers advised not to eat raw bean sprouts

[idun]

This company has been on tv and have said that they do not believe it is their products as they sell their seeds all over europe and the UK and the outbreaks have only been in specific areas.

So to be seen, I'm sure that they can soon germinate some seeds in uncontaminated water and test them.

 

This just goes on and on. I am so sorry for all those who are now ill.

[NormanH]

There is now this advice from the Food Standards Agency:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/foodanddrinknews/8598821/E.coli-consumers-advised-not-to-eat-raw-bean-sprouts.html

[Clarkkent]

[quote user="idun"]

This company has been on tv and have said that they do not believe it is their products as they sell their seeds all over europe and the UK and the outbreaks have only been in specific areas.

So to be seen, I'm sure that they can soon germinate some seeds in uncontaminated water and test them.

[/quote]

Oh dear. Is our basic science education so poor? This is not directed at you, Idun, but is a comment on the general direction this thread seems to be going.

Biology 101

The contamination is not due to the seeds but to the conditions in which the plants are grown and handled. E. coli is a bacterium which exists in the environment, it is not part of the genetic make up of the seeds and it matters not an iota which company has distributed them.

The most likely cause of this (and any) outbreak of E. coli is the animal faeces in the organic manure used as fertiliser to grow the beansprouts. (Or workers not washing their hands after visiting the toilet before handling food.) One of the great modern myths is that "organic" food is safer than conventionally produced food. A study carried out in the USA a few years ago suggested that E. coli infection is 19 times more likely in organic production than conventional where the manure is less than a year old.

 

[5-element]

 

 

Thank you CK for a little enlightenment (not being at all facetious). I don't know about anyone else, but I freely confess that my basic science education is abysmal. So I am keen to understand how the finger could even begin to be pointed at T & M, if this is such basic knowledge that seeds are automatically germ-free.

I do know from personal experience over many years, about growing sprouts (non-commercially, i.e. probably just like the Begles municipal employees did). No manure (organic or otherwise) is ever used, only water. I do know that all e.coli bacteria (superstrain or more ordinary strains) come from animal faeces. I also completely believe, alas, that many many people do not wash their hands after going to the toilet, especially here in France (sigh! I have repeatedly tried to point this out to people who just laugh in my face).

Since you are obviously so much more au fait with the relevant scientific understanding than some of us (although I can only speak for myself), do you have any idea how this superstrain could have landed in the faeces, say, of one of the workers who handled the sprouts, since it has been such a rare strain? That is the part I really don't understand - could a person be a carrier of E.coli 0104, and not get ill themselves??? And if they are carriers, WHERE did they get the bacterium from?

[idun]

[quote user="Clarkkent"][quote user="idun"]

This company has been on tv and have said that they do not believe it is their products as they sell their seeds all over europe and the UK and the outbreaks have only been in specific areas.

So to be seen, I'm sure that they can soon germinate some seeds in uncontaminated water and test them.

[/quote]

Oh dear. Is our basic science education so poor? This is not directed at you, Idun, but is a comment on the general direction this thread seems to be going.

Biology 101

The contamination is not due to the seeds but to the conditions in which the plants are grown and handled. E. coli is a bacterium which exists in the environment, it is not part of the genetic make up of the seeds and it matters not an iota which company has distributed them.

The most likely cause of this (and any) outbreak of E. coli is the animal faeces in the organic manure used as fertiliser to grow the beansprouts. (Or workers not washing their hands after visiting the toilet before handling food.) One of the great modern myths is that "organic" food is safer than conventionally produced food. A study carried out in the USA a few years ago suggested that E. coli infection is 19 times more likely in organic production than conventional where the manure is less than a year old.

 

[/quote]

 

LOL I thought that I had sort of said that in my very own simplistic way.[:D] I had hoped that it would be seen that I meant that the seeds would be grown in non polluted conditions to evaluate that the seeds themselves were not at fault. Is that right??????

It makes perfect sense that pollution comes from faeces of one sort or another.

 

[pachapapa]

I was curious as to the Biology 101 tag.

http://www.the101series.com/

Oh my dawg! Gotta study Bi-ology and The-ology.[:P]

[Clarkkent]

Idun: Yes, indeed you had said that. But what sort of thinking is going on in a French official's brain? Blaming the source of the seed for the outbreak is extremely mischievous, to say the least.  It should not be necessary to have to demonstrate a lack of connection between seed and a bacterium.

As to 5-Element's question, I don't know. I would guess it is a product of the random mutations that are always occuring. Simple Darwinian evolutionary processes.

Which brings me to Pachapapa's interesting barb. I was using "101" in the context of any first level academic course. He has found a fundagelical site advertising a home study kit which explains all biological diversity in terms of the world being created on the evening of 23 October 4004 BCE (which was a Sunday) - and which of course dismisses any idea that Darwin's explanation has any credibility. As everyone knows, the Great Flood created the Grand Canyon and drowned all the dinosaurs.

[idun]

[quote user="Clarkkent"]

 As everyone knows, the Great Flood created the Grand Canyon and drowned all the dinosaurs.

[/quote]

 

Is that a Sarah Palin'ism [:-))], how that woman frightens me.