Mimi Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I have a very small parcel of land (70m2) with two cherry trees about 50ms from my house. I have never really used it as I have a garden attached to the house. Last year I noticed that a lot of debris had been dumped there by a neighbour and when I tackled him about it, he insisted it was his land and that only a tiny portion belonged to me which is clearly not the case. He is a friendly enough chap but I do rather think he is taking advantage of the fact that I am now alone (my husband died last year). He does in fact own the adjoining piece of land which he uses to grow vegetables but he and his family use my land for sunbathing and barbeques. I am reluctant to tackle him any further as like I said, I don’t use the land and I don’t want to be petty, but I also don’t want to find that after a certain amount of time, the land does actually become his – squatters’ rights and all that. Does anybody know how I stand with that? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 I assume that you can access your 70 M2 without going through someone elses land i.e. not an enclave.Possibly after a period of 30 years a servitude could be established, for this to take place there would have to have been no objection on your part, french law will customarily assume that a simple tolerance is involved. If the neighbour encroaches on your land then an "empietement" will have taken place. French law regards "empietement" very strictly and even the most minimal degree of encroachment will result in damages and restitution of the property rights.I presume that as the 70 m2 is isolated that it has a cadastral identification number defining it as a parcelle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimi Posted June 22, 2011 Author Share Posted June 22, 2011 Thank you pachapapa for your well informed reply. I can access the land as there is a little public path running through it effectively cutting it in two parts. These two parts are clearly numbered on the plan cadastrale. It would appear then that I don't really have anything to worry about for the moment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nectarine Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 you could have a word with the mayor and see what advice he could give or, alternately, perhaps put something on that land - old picnic table and chairs, or your washing line - just so you are seen to be using that land on a regular basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 [quote user="Mimi"]Thank you pachapapa for your well informed reply. I can access the land as there is a little public path running through it effectively cutting it in two parts. These two parts are clearly numbered on the plan cadastrale. It would appear then that I don't really have anything to worry about for the moment![/quote]I appreciate you have neighbour problem, apart from the basic question of ownership.I presume that where the public path crosses there is no fence. Is there a fence, wall or anything on the sides away from the path? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimi Posted June 22, 2011 Author Share Posted June 22, 2011 [quote user="nectarine"] perhaps put something on that land - old picnic table and chairs, or your washing line - just so you are seen to be using that land on a regular basis.[/quote]Chance would be a fine thing, he has taken over all the garden with his own table and chairs and washing line and now I've noticed he has even planted flowers. He seems to believe that my part is a strip 1 metre wide and 10 metres long under the cherry trees. Like I said, I don't want to be petty and fall out with neighbours but I think I'm more aggrieved that I've let him take advantage.As for the Maire, it's a long story but I don't think approaching him would make much difference.Anyway, on the bright side, it saves me the maintenance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimi Posted June 22, 2011 Author Share Posted June 22, 2011 The path effectively cuts all the gardens in half. There are no fences but there is a liitle drainage channel which seems to be the boundary between his land and mine. At the front of the land is a river and behind is the road which is at a higher level and is accessed by some stairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Why do you have little confidence in the Maire?The land might be worth between € 700 -1500 have you considered selling it?What would be approximately the total length if you decided to fence it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardian Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Mimi ...........My initial reaction to this when I read your thread earlier today hasn't changed.Why worry?At 70m2, it's the size of 2 average swimming pools, so hardly a threat to your overall estate. Yes, your neighbour is almost certainly trying it on, but it's hardly worth busting a gut over. PPP's advice over the potential value is valid, but it would cost you 3x the value to sell it your neighbour and conduct all the legalities. If it was 700m2, yes ............ but for that size, let it go. It goes against the grain, but whatever you do, don't get involved in geometres and legal disputes - you'll end up spending 20x the value of the land and fret, fret, fret.If it was me, I'd say, "Have it for your use (though be clear that the Cadastral says it's mine), but 2 conditions: no dumping of rubbish & I want the cherries!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Not worth getting legal so... A. I'll invite the family around for a picnic on your land to assert ownership.B. Why not dump your own rubbish on the land so the neighbour won't want it?C Put up a sign saying beware nuclear waste buried here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 [quote user="Dog"]Not worth getting legal so... A. I'll invite the family around for a picnic on your land to assert ownership.B. Why not dump your own rubbish on the land so the neighbour won't want it?C Put up a sign saying beware nuclear waste buried here.[/quote]Best is to collect and sow bramble & thistle seeds.[:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Giant Hogwort and Salvia u know what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimi Posted June 23, 2011 Author Share Posted June 23, 2011 Thanks everyone for your input. Gardian I am inclined to agree with you - it's not worth all the hassle over such a small piece of land. I think it's the fact that I have let him walk all over me which is the main issue - note to self: MUST BE MORE ASSERTIVE!As for the cherries, he is welcome to them - the last time I tried some they had little maggots inside ugh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 PPP would get stroppy over any piece of french land.Even 40 square metres of it.[;-)][IMG]http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk244/pachapapa/img029.jpg[/IMG] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I too would get stoppy about it. If these parcels are indicated on the plan cadastre with a number for each, as you have mentioned, then these numbers will be on your official paperwork. Sometimes these numbers change but the Hotel des Impots or DDE will have the original numbers and the new ones.Also I would get in touch with the Notaire. They did the paperwork.And if you don't think that the french do not have these disputes, THEY DO! Firstly I would write to them recommande avec accuse de reception. I would say to please find the enclosed paperwork, which would include the relevant page from your acte de vente with the parcel numbers on it and a copy of the plan cadastre too. Then that I was disappointed to see that they had been using my land without my permission. I would like to them to remove all their affairs from my land or I would be obliged to move it and leave it for les ordures to collect.If you do nothing, they'll think you stupid and weak. And if you do something they'll think you nasty and petty. It would be good to think that you could all be on nodding terms at least, but disputes in villages can go on for centuries, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.IF this is your land then I think that you have to do something. LOL even if you wanted to give it to them it would cost a lot to do it properly, as the taxes start at around 750€*. In fact why don't you ask your notaire how much it would cost them if you officially gave them the land.*We bought 120m² from our neighbour and it cost a lot in taxes, I'll have to dig the bill out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoddy Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Mimi I'm sorry to hear that you have decided to let this go. I'm also sorry that you have had some silly replies. Sadly, it is true that some people do try to take advantage over widows and others who are alone. If I were in your position I would do something because one day you might want to sell the house and it might delay the sale. Equally it might leave a problem for those who inherit when you die.If your French is reasonable and if you are on something like decent terms with him I would tell him again that you are quite certain that the land is yours and try to move forward from there. If he won't accept that I would follow Idun's advice as above.Hoddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickP Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Mimi; do you pay the local tax on this piece of land ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimi Posted June 23, 2011 Author Share Posted June 23, 2011 It is not a question of him disputing the cadastrale numbers –. it’s just HIS interpretation of the plan and the size of the plot. There are no markers and the drainage channel does seem to be the limit of my plot. As pachapapa said, he cannot claim the land as his own after X amount of years which was my original question, so I don’t think there would be a problem if I came to sell my house or for any succession. As for selling the plot alone, I doubt if anyone would be interested in buying. The notaire costs etc. are just not worth it – I wanted to purchase a strip next to my house a few years back (66m2) and it would have cost about 1000 euros inc. all the fees.I think I may have given the impression to some on the forum that I am some lonely little English widow letting the French walk all over me. This is not the case at all. I have lived in France for a long time now, I work here and my husband was French. In most cases I am not afraid to give as good as I get but when it comes to neighbours I think you have to tread a little carefully. I don’t really want to become embroiled in a dispute which at the end of the day would probably cause more problems than it would solve and be potentially expensive. Life is too short.Anyway, thanks to all for taking an interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just john Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Also it is a matter of mutual respect and something I would want to establish de facto, a geometre would cost less than a few hundred euros and would insert markers, after which you could both be clear about the boundaries in every sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardian Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 [quote user="just john "]a geometre would cost less than a few hundred euros [/quote]Give over JJ. A geometre wouldn't leave his or her office for much less than €500. And that would be for starters.Even down here, we were charged €110 / hr. Not our choice of geometre I hasten to add (appointed by the Tribunal), but nonetheless ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Unlike a notaire there is no tarif for a géomètre expert. A realistic figure would be € 750, assuming that the two parties agree à l'aimable. I fear in this instance not a foregone conclusion. The other thing that bothers me is that the "bout de terre" is perhaps distant from close points of reference, complicating and resulting in an extended time to complete the survey.It would be interesting nevertheless to see a diagram of the parcelle in order to assess more pertinently the potential difficulties involved.I agree with the OP that the future sale or disposal or even a state of indivision of the property is unlikely to cause any significant problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just john Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Clearly it depends what you want done, I wanted my plot defined, (larger than this one) afterwards during discussion he offered to liase with adjacent owner over an exchange wrote several letters; and charged less than €200 - perhaps your situation was different to this . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardian Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 [quote user="Mimi"]Life is too short. [/quote]My impression is that Mimi has 'got her head screwed on' and now needs no further input from any of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 Further input of a jocular nature.[:)]Résumé:Neighbours have dispute over land. One neighbour erects fence. Case gets to the Court of Appeal who rule that as the "empiétement is only 1/2 a centimetre over a limited portion of the boundary it is of no significance.Other neighbour takes it to the Court of Cassation on a point of law. Court rules that the essence of the law is to be strictly applied and that any transgression of the boundary line is not permitted.http://lexinter.net/JPTXT/empietement_sur_la_propriete.htm que peu importe la mesure de l’empiétement, la cour d’appel a violé le texte susvisé ....hard luck to Appeal Court.[:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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