A question of residence

[woolybanana]

Here is a little conundrum that much better brains than mine might be able to offer opinions on:

Assuming that you were resident in UK for tax purposes and had a second home here which you used for just under the 180  odd day limit but had to come to France for professional reasons, like, say, research or work, how might your residence status be affected, given that your centre of economic activity and main home remained in UK?

[AnOther]

It wouldn't.

For holiday home owners the number of days spent in France is, on it's own, irrelevant as, unlike UK where 183 days would see you automatically regarded as resident, in France it is not a determinator in it's own right and only comes into play where residency cannot be proven by other means.

[NormanH]

Does this link help?

http://www.ufe.org/fiscalite/determiner-sa-residence-fiscale

My brain is no better than yours but is alcohol free since February...

[woolybanana]

That, Norman is a serious sacrifice for love!

Thanks, guys, I'll have a peep at the other links.

[idun]

And the other way round, 184 days in France and the rest in the UK?

So much to think about with this isn't there. Income tax, high in the UK, but no NI to pay and free prescriptions and eye tests and bus pass and winter fuel allowance.  So an EHIC is then fine for France, but need travel insurance that would cover properly and that could end up being cheaper than any mutualist.

Also the timing of the move should be well thought out to not have too much UK tax to pay that first year and maybe none at all in France, if it is paid.

 

 

 

 

 

[woolybanana]

Does inheritance come under the same rules about residence?

[cooperlola]

Broadly, afaik, non residents are subject to French inheritance laws only for the property in France.

See:

http://www.french-property.com/guides/france/finance-taxation/inheritance/rights/

[idun]

Just wrote a bit of a reply and my puter crashed. Quite a lot of stuff on this page, about leaving and about inheritence. http://www.impots.gouv.fr/portal/dgi/public/particuliers.impot?pageId=part_horsfrance&espId=1&sfid=1250

As Coops said, french stuff remains under french rules, but I have a feeling that in that little lot, they seem to want to interfere in anything within five years of leaving France. Still 'I' haven't read it all thoroughly just lazily perused in a distant and disinterested way, so I may be well off mark.

 

[Will]

It's all fairly academic. You can be fiscally resident in any number of different countries at the same time. Where you pay tax on any particular item is determined by the double taxation agreements.

As far as tax goes, you can be domiciled in only one country. This can impact on inheritance issues, and is complicated by the fact that the French taxman regards you to be French domiciled if you are French tax resident, whereas HMRC have their own, rather more complicated, definitions of domicile.

Which country is responsible for providing, and collecting contributions to, health and social security services, is less clear-cut. When there is any doubt, the basic rule that seems to be applied is that it is where you spend the majority of your time. The 183 day rule might well apply, but if you spent, say, 150 days in France, 140 days in Britain, and 75 days somewhere else, in the year in question, you would still come under the French system despite being there for considerably fewer than 183 days.

[AnOther]

I've linked to this article before and although it dates from 2008 I don't think much has changed.

http://www.kentingtons.com/blog/index.php/tax-residency/are-you-a-tax-resident-of-france/

[idun]

ANIMALS, if this is for you, then you'll have to think about them too.

The good thing is that the rules about animals crossing the channel are changing, but you still may need to do some things, best check up now.

[HoneySuckleDreams]

i thought the 180 day had now changed to 180 in any one year or average of 90 days over more than one year. This sorted out those people who spent 182 days in the Uk and 183 somewhere else?

[cooperlola]

When somebody actually shows me a legal reference to something called the 180 day rule, I'll believe in it!  Meanwhile, I reckon that Will (comme d'hab) is pretty much bang on.[:)]

[Loiseau]

[quote user="AnOther"]I've linked to this article before ...

[/quote]

Very interesting article, AnO.

Angela

[idun]

Wooly, I pm'd you about this.

[LEO]

[quote user="Loiseau"][quote user="AnOther"]I've linked to this article before ...

[/quote]

Very interesting article, AnO.

Angela

[/quote]

with respect to AnOther and Loiseau"

I always thought an article was something extracted from a newspaper or magazine whereas this info comes from an investment company who may have a French bias.

[AnOther]

[quote user="LEO"]I always thought an article was something extracted from a newspaper or magazine whereas this info comes from an investment company who may have a French bias.[/quote]That sounds like borderline paranoia [blink]

Leaving aside semantics if they were trying to sell something I might agree with you however on the topic of residency I fail to see any motive for them to lie, mislead, or even 'gild the lilly', what would they possibly stand to gain ?

[andyh4]

[quote user="cooperlola"]When somebody actually shows me a legal reference to something called the 180 day rule, I'll believe in it!  Meanwhile, I reckon that Will (comme d'hab) is pretty much bang on.[:)][/quote]

 

It is actually mentioned (well actually 183 days) in the Double Taxation Treaty - but only once and only with regards to employment.  I think a treaty would be considered to have legal status.

[AnOther]

As far as UK are concerned 90 days and 183 days are significant number in terms of expatriate workers working in tax free environments, such as the Middle East for instance.

Its also mentioned on the HMRC website here (Q3 & 13) http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/cnr/faqs_general.htm

[Will]

The so-called 183-day and 90-day rules are something that HMRC apply to determine UK tax residence, though HMRC stresses these are not exclusive, and one can still be deemed resident using other criteria even when spending fewer than 90 days in the country. The concept has not existed as such in French tax law, but is frequently quoted on forums like this by those who mistakenly believe that the same rules are applied in each country. The French prefer to go along with the concept that if you spend more time in France than anywhere else you are fiscally resident in France - though, as with HMRC, there are numerous other ways of determining tax residence. The latest double taxation agreement does mention 180, or 183, days with respect to France, but only with reference to a specific situation so it can hardly constitute an all-emcompassing legal principle.