M & S, Chronopost and My Legal Rights

[mint]

I won't bore you with the saga of my attempt to buy goods from M & S and their delivery company of choice, Chronopost International.

Here are the bare bones to put you in the picture and enable you to advise me:

17 December, placed order with M & S on line.

24 December, letter from Chronopost International, claiming they have attempted delivery and are unable to do so.  I therefore faxed Chronopost with a map, directions to my house (which is, incidentally on a main departmental road and is unmissable) plus my telephone number to enable their driver to phone if in trouble.

Several phone calls to M & S & Chronopost later, the current situation is this:

Chronopost sent my original parcel back to M & S, M & S sent out a near-identical parcel which did not involve me in any more expense.

Then, the predictable letter from Chronopost, this time dated 18 January, claiming they have "tenté de livre";  this statement is patently untrue because the house was full of cars and friends that day as I had people to lunch.

My (now confirmed) suspicion is that Chronopost doesn't bother to attempt delivery unless you have a house number and street name.  I had a parcel from UPS only yesterday and their driver sensibly rang me from the village for directions, I've orderd stuff from Darty, Amazon, numerous companies using different delivery services and the problem has only ever been with Chronopost.

All M & S could offer by way of explanation was that they sent parcels via Royal Mail who then sub-contracted to Chronopost.

My position is that my contract is with M & S and not with any other third party.  It costs money to contact Chronopost and, anyway, I haven't yet been able to speak to a real life person at Chronopost, only an electronic switchboard.

So,  this afternoon, I have phoned M & S (again) and emailed to ask to see their Mission Statement, Customer Code or similar, I have stated my dissatisfaction with their actions so far, I have also sent a sarcastic email (only been able to get this via M & S as there isn't an email for end-users on the Chronopost site) to Chronopost, asking whether they had GPS or indeed whether their driver know how to use a telephone.

What I want to know is what my consumer rights are as an on-line customer, how long I am supposed to wait for goods after the seller has emailed to confirm despatch, what efforts I am supposed to make on my part to assist delivery (apart from moving to an address in the Home Counties) and what redress I can demand.

In particular, as I pointed out to M & S, the goods ordered were "time-sensitive", being thermal underwear for my poor OH who, of course, has not had the benefit of them in what has arguably been the coldest period in North European meteorological history for a number of years! 

[mint]

Please may I bump this up?

It got sent before I'd finished and then I had to use the Edit function and it took me ages to explain what it was all about?

Can someone take pity on me and help me do something more constructive than tearing out my own hair and wasting time on the telephone?

[minnie]

Hi sweet, From time to time I use M&S and, consequently, Chronopost. On the latest occasion, just before Christmas, I received a phone call from Chronopost's office at Bordeaux saying they'd tried to deliver the previous day and we were out (no note left so I did doubt that they'd been. They agreed to come the next day, but surprisingly no visit. Just as I was about to take action the following morning I received a phone call at 8am asking for directions which we gave. The guy actually arrived about 4pm. We just have a house name and name of village. I established that our goods came from the hub at Bordeaux and at varying points goods were transferred to local distributors. I wonder if perhaps their contract with M&S includes a guarantee of attempted delivery within x days. My next move was to contact M&S and ask them to liaise with Chronopost. Have you tried to track the item via Chronopost? Good luck anyway.

[suein56]

deleted

[mint]

[quote user="minnie"]Hi sweet, From time to time I use M&S and, consequently, Chronopost. On the latest occasion, just before Christmas, I received a phone call from Chronopost's office at Bordeaux saying they'd tried to deliver the previous day and we were out (no note left so I did doubt that they'd been. They agreed to come the next day, but surprisingly no visit. Just as I was about to take action the following morning I received a phone call at 8am asking for directions which we gave. The guy actually arrived about 4pm. We just have a house name and name of village. I established that our goods came from the hub at Bordeaux and at varying points goods were transferred to local distributors. I wonder if perhaps their contract with M&S includes a guarantee of attempted delivery within x days. My next move was to contact M&S and ask them to liaise with Chronopost. Have you tried to track the item via Chronopost? Good luck anyway.[/quote]

Minnie, unfortunately for me, the relevant office is in Poitiers.  And they have never attempted to phone me, despite my faxing them my phone number.  I have never managed to speak to a real person despite ringing several times.

I had the same problem last year but at least they didn't seem to have an automated switchboard then.

Yes, I have tried tracking via their site but the trail always stops at Poitiers and says that they are waiting for further instructions.

Having wrung some concessions from M & S, they did send out more goods some of which were more expensive than the ones I'd ordered and they have written off the excess.

But, that's no help whatever to me as I don't want a refund, I just want the products I ordered.

I await to see what reply, if any, I have from either Chronopost or M & S.

Anyway, where is our resident legal expert, Dragonrouge, when you need him? [6]

I wish I had more time to faff about sorting this out but I am off on holiday in 10 days time and the way these people are dragging their feet, I don't expect this to be resolved before I leave.

So now, I can never order from M & S again but I am going to find out what Consumre Rights I have and I am going to take this as far as I am able.

Today, I had to really stand my ground and asked for something definite, like being put through to a Manager who would be in a position of authority.  Of course, they just put me through to some Complaints Team and the unimpressive person I spoke to told me she wouldn't be back till Friday.

So, for the sake of my own sanity, I emailed her in order to have a record of what we spoke about and also forwarded a copy of my email to Chronopost.

What annoys me is that I have paid for the goods including a delivery charge, they have had my money since mid December and now in mid January, I have to ring, email, fax, write........gggg........rrggg

But thank you for listening, Minnie, I am at my grumpiest, especially as I missed my walk today with my dog whilst waiting for M & S's call.

[AnOther]

Don't know if THIS might help you sweets

AFAIK Chronopost are a part of La Poste

EDIT: Sorry, I think it's Colissimo who are La Poste not Chronopost.

[mint]

Thank you, Erns. Did think you might have an idea what to do.

As it's good, old M & S, I think I'll keep my powder dry until I have to fire my fusillade.

At the very last resort, I shall tell them I want them to send my things via another courrier.  I shall tell them when I expect everything resolved and what exactly I feel they should do to fulfil their part of the contract with me (that is, me offering them money, which they have accepted and therefore tacitly agreed to send me my goods in the time-scale agreed).

It's just that it's all such a hassle and I am away for a fortnight in about 10 days' time, so difficult to follow up, etc.

Would be a lot easier if I just want a refund but I don't want that.  I have bought some things at 15% VAT and at a bit of a bargain so I ain't gonna let go.........

It's at times like these that I wish I were still back in good old Blighty and I could go to a branch of M & S, demand to see somebody in charge, demand that they ring up, email on my behalf or at least make someone, somewhere feel uncomfortable........

But thanks for the offer of advice, it's good to know that someone understands..[:)]

[Baz]

[quote user="sweet 17"]

Would be a lot easier if I just want a refund but I don't want that.  I have bought some things at 15% VAT and at a bit of a bargain so I ain't gonna let go.........

[/quote]

It maybe worth checking on the M&S site if theses goods are still available as their turnover is very fast. If they are still available ask M&S to reserve them for you while they sort out the non delivery. If they are no longer in stock then rather than blowing  a fuse, just ask for an immediate refund and leave them with the hassle of sorting out the lost goods.

Baz

[mint]

Baz, they did replace the original order with some other, more expensive stuff, that they are paying for.  Also, although the delivery charge has gone up since the first order, they are keeping to the original agreement and not charging extra.

What I feel is that I have paid for goods including delivery so it's up to the sellers (M & S) to sort this as that was my contract with them and I do think that all this barking up the wrong tree with Chronopost etc is none of my business.

[woolybanana]

If you have an accessible letter box, why are Chronopost not delivering. They have left my M and S orders in the letterbox if I have been away. Is it the roaming, slavering dogs in the chateau grounds that frighten them off.

[BJSLIV]

Coliposte v Chronopost

In fact they are both subsidiaries of Geoposte, which  in turn is a subsidiary of La Poste!

Quelle est la différence entre ColiPoste et Chronopost ?
Bonne question ! ColiPoste livre sous 48h. Chronopost livre sous moins de 24h.

I think the more significant difference is that Chronopost uses contractors to do the deliveries , mainly to businesses, whereas Coliposte uses directly employed postmen who know their domestic patch better. 

If you look on the internet there are dozens of complaints about Chronopost, in particular their drivers dislike of delivering to individuals. regular complaints are the  refusal to use the phone to check addresses, non delivery to blocks of flats,  false nobody at homes, or  leaving signed for goods on doorsteps etc etc.

Its unfortunate that M&S are suffering in this way. They have tried to open up this international market,and they have no doubt sourced what seemed to be the most economical delivery route. Unfortunately their chosen partners Royal Mail are tied to La Poste. If they have to go to an alternative carrier such as DHL  it might make the whole thing uneconomic.

Can you imagine what  Service Level Agreement discussions between Royal Mail and La Poste must be like?

PS I believe that Chronopost drivers are supplied with satnav equipment. I can imagine that if you have an address of the type

Blogs,

Hameau,

99999

France

Then that won't help either.

 

 

[Pommier]

Do you know anyone in the nearest town/village with a 'proper' address who would accept the delivery for you?

It sounds as if M & S are trying their best but Chronopost are doing theirs!

[Gardengirl]

Poor Sweet, I've nothing useful to add, but hope you get this sorted soon. Very time consuming and irritating. Even having stuff sent via one of us wouldn't help, as there would still be delivery to then pay to your address. [:(] Pommier's suggestion sounds sensible, but your goods are still either sitting at Poitiers or on their way back to M&S! (I see poor Pommier was still awake at 02:08!)

[AnOther]

For your bookmarks sweets, the French equivalent of the CAB,

http://www.clcv.org

[Gemonimo]

Sweets, ust to add my ten cents worth, but not to make you feel awful (promise!!) my daughter sent a box of clobber for my little holiday next week via TNT.  She sent it on Tuesday and it arrived today.  The delivery man had GPS in his van plus my phone number in case he couldn't find me and as you know, I live in the middle of nowhere.  Sooo, perhaps you should ask M&S to send your package via TNT?  If nothing else they seem to be efficient.

[cooperlola]

My experience of Chronopost tallies with yours and others', Sweets - ie they are cr*p.  Their idea of delivery seems to be to phone us to say that we weren't in and wait for us to come into Le Mans and pick up our stuff.  Obviously M&S have done a deal with them without knowing their reputation, as said above.  I think all you can do is relate your experience to them, say that you "have heard" that you are not alone in your experience of them, and ask them to consider using somebody else in future!

Amazon, for example, seem to use the Post Office/La Poste when sending all sorts of things from the UK and this rarely takes much more than 48 hours and costs far less than M&S charge for postage (£4.95 to send a 17" laptop which I bought last week and which arrived three days after I ordered it).

[mint]

Bonjour, everybody and thank you all for your valuable input.

My word, a sorry saga of Chronopost.  What annoys me even more in their letter, after the "tenté de livrer" is this sentence:

A défault de réaction de votre part sous 14 jours, l'envoi en référence sera retourné par nos soins à expéditeur sans que notre responsabilité puisse être engagée à ce titre.

So, their letter takes, say 2 to 3 days to get to you, so that leaves you "environs" 10 days to get back to them and, if you just happen to be away for a fortnight, like I will be, your parcel gets returned to the senders?  No second attempt then on their part to contact you or to deliver your stuff?  You get back to them or else.....? 

I don't know whether to treat that statement as a promise or a threat![8-)]  Have I read them right or not?

But, there has been a bit of positive development today though I won't hold my breath till I get my parcel.  Someone from M & S actually rang and said they'd spoken to Chronopost Poitiers and guess what, someone from Chronopost has just this minute rung me for directions.

Well, not to begin with, they wanted me to go to the Post Office in my town tomorrow morning.  So, I said, and why can't you deliver to my house?

After a bit of impatience (on both the woman's and I must admit on my part also), I told them where to find me.  Then the damned woman tried to hurry me off the phone at which point I put the phone down before I used every French swear word that I knew (and I do know enough to be seriously offensive)![6]

Incidentally, she admitted to me on the phone that the drivers do not have GPS in their vans!!!  For a delivery service NOT to have GPS, no wonder they are unable to find their customers...enough said.

OH has said he bets they deliver to the Bureau de Poste tomorrow but I await events and will let you all know the eventual outcome of this.

I think the Forum works at its best when this sort of stuff gets brought up for sharing because otherwise we will all be living in these "isolated" pockets of rural France and be unable to have our bit of home comfort sent from the old country!

 

[Chancer]

It would appear to confirm that without your persistant intevention they didnt want or intend to deliver or redeliver but just to inform you that they couldnt and get you to collect from their depot. Nice work if you can get it!

They may of course have picked up this astuce from the management of the UK post office or whatever they call themselves these days.

BTW the only way that deliveries or people can find my property is if they havnt a GPS as the road name is incorrect on all GPS's that I have tried with the exception of a top of the range Audi and the on-line mapping services like Mappy.

Even our Mairie does not have a street map of the village, when I arrived I naively thought that I could buy an street level atlas with all the towns and villages etc like I used to use daily in the UK.

[Benjamin]

"I think the Forum works at its best when this sort of stuff gets

brought up for sharing because otherwise we will all be living in

these "isolated" pockets of rural France and be unable to have our bit

of home comfort sent from the old country!"

It works even better for me when people like yourself sweets come back and let those who've tried to help know what's going on.

I've lost count and so, I guess, have others of taking the trouble to pass on info and then never getting any feedback on it's usefullness.

[Gardengirl]

Sounds hopeful Sweet; keeping fingers crossed for delivery tomorrow. [:D]

[AnOther]

GPS is all well and good but I have yet to come across one which even shows my lane let alone my house which is at the end 500m along it. There are a great many places like mine which GPS will never find unless given actual grid coordinates and how many even know those or would think to pass them to a courier ?

Our house is actually named after the hill on which it sits, and the only property to boot, and if you type that plus the postcode into viamichelin, mappy.fr, or maps.google.fr they all put you bang on the doorstep with absolutely no room for doubt or error.

GPS or not we are very easy to find - if you bother to ask. Invariably when we have deliveries, and we've had a couple by Chronopost, the driver has phoned ahead for directions.

Maybe we've been lucky [blink]

[mint]

[quote user="woolybanana"]If you have an accessible letter box, why are Chronopost not delivering. They have left my M and S orders in the letterbox if I have been away. Is it the roaming, slavering dogs in the chateau grounds that frighten them off.[/quote]

Wools, what I suspect and has now proved (if only to myself)is that Chronopost do not bother to attempt delivery if you have no number and no street.  Well, you do have a number and a street in your address, see, Wools.

I mean, if your address is merely Chateau Sweet 17***, Chronopost won't even try to deliver, dogs or no dogs.

No good telling them, well, it's the last the Chateau in white Tuffeau stone leaving the village on the D*** or at least, I would tell them if they'd rung to ask.

Anyway, what's wrong with asking at the Post Office or the Mairie or any number of the inhabitants of our village IF they have a mind to deliver.  After all, Sweet wouldn't be Sweet if she wasn't known by all and sundry now, would she?[8-|]

Yes, Erns, I do think you have been lucky but then I think you are unlikely to have POITIERS as your Chronopost depot?

Anyway, I am now wondering whether I ought to be asking M & S for some sort of compensation.

What do you think, guys?  

[Chancer]

I think that M&S have reacted very well and have done all that you could expect of them.

Its a pity that you are not seen as a customer by Chronopost but just one of the great unwashed as you could try explaining to them the concept of compensation, actually I bet they treat their customers with the same indifference.

What sort of a journey does it entail for you to go to Poitiers to collect in future? Sometimes you just have to accept that you will never win against certain adversaries and compromise.

[JohnRoss]

Sweet 17 pm sent.................JR

[mint]

Thanks, JR, just replied.