"Set-up" tax implications

[Robert]

Thank you NormanH

Just when I thought you were revealing your soft side you hit me with another assumption of my intentions.

Just for the record-

I am truly thankful for all help, including yours

I am trying to be proactive.

By asking the questions I am attacking the problems I am encountering.

And hopefully I will get more specific as I learn more.

Now for that French dictionary

Happy Friday NormanH

Robert

[Robert]

Hi everyone

I may not be back on this site till late on sunday. So please don't think I have lost interest by my absence.

After some further research I may have some more specific questions next week if anyone is up for that.

Thanks to everyone and I hope you all have a wonderful weekend whatever you are doing.

Happy Friday from North Wales

Robert the missunderstood.

[YCCMB]

Here's a little something to add in.

Everyone who knows huge amounts more than me about healthcare and stuff has already chipped in, as have people who know huge amounts more than me about building and planning permissions, so I'll skip that.

You say you're selling up in the UK in order to move over, and the question of "keeping a foothold" etc., has also been addressed.

One thing I would say, however, is do not underestimate (all other considerations and costs aside) just how much it's going to cost you both in time and money to do up a property (or properties) of the scale you describe....least of all if you intend doing much of the work yourself. It really isn't cheap..

I've said this on many forums over the years, (or even many times on the same forums[:)] ) and there's only ONE person who has ever been able to answer me and that happens to be AndyH4. I can't imagine, let alone count, the number of people who have moved over to do up a ruin, or at least somewhere in bad repair. Apart from Andy, I've met no-one who can say how much it's cost them altogether to buy the original ruin and do it up. However, I am willing to bet the farm that the vast majority thought it was going to be easier, quicker and cheaper than it turned out to be.

If you come with no form of income, intending to operate Gites, your business can't and won't get off the ground until they are complete, and that will take longer than you may imagine. If you are mortgage-free, that's great, but you'll also be income-free (OK, perhaps pensions or whatever, but nonetheless) and every bill, every delivery of building materials and every tradesman you may need to employ will be eating into your capital.

Once upon a time, the nay-sayers and doom merchants were a minority on most francophile forums, adding a tiny amount of balance and being roundly condemned for it by those for whom France was the promised land, everything was cheaper, the sun never set and the wine was abundant and cheap. These days, the only common factor is that the wine is still abundant ( some is still cheap, but not necessarily drinkable). Read the posts over the past couple of years, and the nay-sayers are increasing in number. Instead of saying "do it!" to anyone asking "Should I move to France?" a far greater number of posters have started saying "Are you really, really sure?". And, honestly, it's certainly not because they're trying to keep France exclusive and don't want any old Tom, Dick or Harry coming over and joining in.

[Robert]

Hiya Betty

Some how I get the feeling that these are great words of wisdom.

I hear all you are saying Betty and I agree that over the years when I have sat down and taken a peek at what is being said more and more people are saying 'Think about this- no -really think about this"

For me I will be mortgage free and have enough to do somewhere up and i know - think of a figure and double it. I will be setting aside a year to make it happen longer if needed. I will do most myself including external works, drainage etc, electrics, plumbing, stone work, first and second fix joinery - I quite like the french way of plastering - use an artisan here and there I think. I have experience of working on property.

In terms of what a property will cost and what the likely renovation costs would be I am fairly comfortable with this. My original questions were about the tax's that seem to surprise a lot of people. I hear lots saying that no one told then about this or that. I am trying to get a fix on what they are how often they are and a general feel for what I need to set aside beyond the practicality of the project.

I cannot express how thankful I am to you all for taking the time to advise , warn and encourage me into looking further at all the issues. I really appreciate the honesty of everyones comments.

And I am fully aware that once you have your project completed - thats when it really starts. You can build but it doesn't mean they will come !

I am still being positive about this, a twitch may develop but I will keep going for the time being

Wish I could buy you all a drink !

Robert

[tinabee]

[quote user="Robert"]My original questions were about the tax's that seem to surprise a lot of people. I hear lots saying that no one told then about this or that. I am trying to get a fix on what they are how often they are and a general feel for what I need to set aside beyond the practicality of the project.[/quote]

Hi

the problem with local planning taxes is that they can vary enormously from area to area. There are about half a dozen possible planning taxes, and the rates are set or influenced by the local plannig authority.

There is a good explanation here:

http://www.french-property.com/guides/france/building/planning/planning-taxes/

Until you know where you want to buy/build/renovate you won't be able to estimate these taxes, since you will need information on the location to determine what taxes apply and at what rates. The rates also vary depending on usage and size, so for example, barn conversion intended for gite usage would have a different tax rate than a barn conversion intended for a principal residence.

Also, if you buy somewhere that needs any buildings demolishing, you may need a permis de démolir, again it depends on the area.

On another cautionary note, if you do all of the renovation yourself and then want to sell any or all of the properties, you cannot offset any of the work against capital gains tax, only a nominal 15% of the purchase price (when selling property that is not your principal residence).

 

[Robert]

Hi Tinabee

Just thought I would take a peek at the forum before going to Tescos !

More advice this is great. I can't believe there is so much movement in whats payable between each area and also it being sometimes at the discretion of the Marie _ I would have started from the point of view of - one tax for all - but this seems not to be the case.

I had raised a question about the taxe locale d'équipement (TLE).

What I have found from your link is the following which may add detail to whats been said already -

" It is basically a tax to go towards the costs of the local infrastructure.

The tax is applied in those communes with more than 10000 habitants and in most communes in the Paris region. In other communes it is discretionary, subject to a decision of the local mairie.

It is payable following grant of a permis de construire or a déclaration de travaux. The first payment is due within 18 months of permission being granted, and the second within 36 months.

The calculation of the tax is based on a formula related to the net habitable size of the property. The rate is 1% to 5% of this figure. Depending on the location and property, the actual amount payable may amount to several thousand euros. "

Once again many thanks for you advice. I am about to post something else which has thrown a spanner into the works.

best regards

Robert

[Robert]

Just found this which may change everything !

"" There is to be a rationalisation of the current confusing and multiple array of planning taxes and a review of planning laws.

The taxes d’urbanisme are a somewhat archaic list of planning taxes that very few properly understand, and which often come as a surprise to those granted planning consent.

Unlike in the UK, no planning application fee is payable, but if consent is granted, then, depending on where you live and the nature of the development, you could be liable for around half a dozen different taxes.

On their own, most of these taxes are fairly inconsequential, but together they can amount to several thousand euros for, say, planning consent for a new home.

The main taxes are :

la taxe locale d'équipement (TLE) ;

la taxe départementale pour le financement des conseils d'architecture, d'urbanisme et de l'environnement ;

la participation pour voirie et réseaux (PVR)

taxe de raccordement à l’égoût (PRE).

There are also specific taxes in certain areas of France, such as la taxe spéciale d'équipement de la Savoie and la taxe complémentaire à la TLE perçue au profit de la région d’Ile-de-France.

The taxes cover the costs incurred by local authorities in the provision of infrastructure services, as well as the operation of the local planning and architectural advisory services (CAUE).

Although full details of the new arrangements have yet to be finalised it seems that as many as possible of these taxes will be merged into a new single tax, called la taxe d’aménagement (TA).

All planning applications and works declarations submitted from 1st March 2012 will be subject to this new tax in lieu of all (or most) of the existing taxes.

In making the announcement, the Minister of Housing and Planning, Bernard Apparu, stated that the proceeds from the new tax would be fiscally neutral, although given the abysmal track record of the government in their assessment of the receipts from other tax reforms they have introduced, few commentators doubt this will be the case.

It is, however, anticipated that one of the bye-products of a rationalisation of the system will be a reduction in administrative costs. ""

------ whether this date of March 1st 2012 is still applicable. As we all know sometime tax reforms don't always go to schedule. There is tons of French information out there but a little beyond my la capacité de français

- I will try and explore this further and come back to the forum.

best regards to all

Robert

[NormanH]

The  Taxe locale d’équipement was already covered in my third link:

Taxe locale d’équipement : qui est concerné ?

La taxe locale d’équipement doit être payée par le propriétaire d’un bien immobilier :

• à l’occasion de la construction, la reconstruction ou l’agrandissement d’un bâtiment de toute nature,
• dans les communes de plus de 10 000 habitants et dans la plupart des
  communes d’Île-de-France. Dans les autres communes si le conseil
  municipal l’a décidé.

La reconstruction de biens immobiliers à la suite d’un sinistre, la

construction de garages à usage commercial, de bâtiments à usage

agricole ou dans un secteur d'aménagement peuvent être exonérées de

cette taxe.

Cette taxe est obligatoire. Elle est payable en deux fractions. La

première, dans les 18 mois qui suivent la délivrance du permis de

construire, et la seconde, 36 mois après cette autorisation. Si elle

n’excède pas 305 EUR, elle doit être payée dans les 18 mois.

If you quote from English texts can you give their source, since there are many ill-informed ones out there  (such as The Connection) and it helps to judge how trustworthy they are.!

Good to see that you are now looking for yourself.

I would suggest looking here :

http://www.urbinfos.com/taxe-d-amenagement-calcul-ta.html

to calculate the taxe'd'amenagement

[Robert]

Hi NormanH

Thanks for your note.

I did look at all your links.

The source for the note I posted is as follows -

http://www.french-property.com/news/build_renovation_france/planning_tax_reforms/

Although this is dated the 10th December 2010. There is a lot of current information on the web but it is beyond - ma compréhension du français. But I am sure your glad to hear NormaH - I am giving it a go !

I have looked at the link you have suggested - www.urbinfos.com. It's like a little French exam ;-) but fun trying to work it out - thank you

As always many thanks to you and everyone else

It is snowing in North Wales !

Robert

[Pommier]

I believe that the timescales for paying the planning taxes has been shortened from 18/36 months to 12/24 months.

[NormanH]

Any help you need with that site I am happy to give..translate awkward bits etc.

[Robert]

Thanks Pommier

I will look into this

Robert

[Robert]

Hi NormanH

Many thanks for the offer, it truly is much appreciated.

Learnt loads of new words today !

Robert

[Bill]

Dear Robert

We are just about to complete on our house in Normandy and I know I am going to be struggling with the  builders

 

This translation service has been very usefull for me, and can give me an idea of what's meant .. it's instant. If you are an i phone person there is also an app, but it uses 3g or wifi.   It allows me to send e mails in french, providing I keep my english fairly simple. (and of course to google words to find services )

 

http://translate.google.com/

 

With regards to costs, when I made an offer, I priced the repairs needed  based on my experience in the UK, having read a lot of the stuff on these sites, I am now doubling my budget. I concluded I  must use french equipment eg pipes or cable, it is french kite marked !!   U need to consider french labour , ( I thought for just a moment about bringing a lorry full of materials and labour with me,  my brothers !!!  ) .

I will receive my first quotes in the coming weeks.. and I expect to be startled !

There are horror stories , reading one about insurance on this forum today.. aaaaaaaaaaagggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh !  at least Mrs Bill speaks fluent french and she doesnt take any nonsense from anyone including me..[8-)].. In fact almost every question I want to ask has been asked before, it's just a question of trying to find out where..

 

good luck with your project.

Bill  

 

 

 

[Sprogster]

Robert, I have just read a French property market outlook review for this year and it makes sobering reading, with the consensus amongst the experts that French house prices are heading down, it is just a question of how much by , with some experts predicting up to a 35% correction!

Anyway I have set out the link below, so I guess the message is take your time and bargain hard.

http://www.french-property.com/news/french_property_market/review_2011_outlook_2012/

 

 

[Robert]

Hi Sprogster

Yes I had read this too but not in your article. I feel sorry for those who will be trying to sell because things have not quite gone to plan. There are some rogues out there and they will take advantage. I believe in a fair price for a fair deal/job.

I have seen some places for sale that have obviously been a step to far for some and there are lots of places out there that are half finished! Really sad to see someones dream fall away from them.

i recently in the Uk had an experience whereby I had sold my house it was under offer all agreed , surveys conditions etc etc and I was all packed, stuff in storage, son moved to a house let, sold furniture that was too big to go to my other house and then at 5.30 on the day before completion they pulled out without an explanation and have never been heard of since either by the estate agent or their own solicitors ! Beggers belief. If I ever see them again i will definitely feel a throttling coming on.

It is quite sobering reading the forum pages. But it is nice to know that there are some in here that really help with constructive advice. and it is great to hear differing views too. Also what's quite nice for me is with NormanH's help it has rekindled my desire to learn more french - signed up to a two day course in liverpool to restart the old grey matter.

Thanks again for your link and advice

Robert

[Robert]

Hi Bill and Mrs Bill

Thanks for this. You sound like your in for an adventure !

French kite marks - oh dear they sound troublesome I wish you luck there.

When I posted my origin question in this forum it was about set up costs, as I had read lots of conflicting articles and I wanted to know from first hand experience what was what. As some of those I had read where quite staggering in their costs. One to mention is architects drawings and plans and it seems that you need these to get through planning- or safer to. May I ask of your experience in this matter. I have read of some being charged 12,000 euros for the service. I know it depends on the size of project and region. But it does sound like one of those services that will just come and bite you on the arse !

It will be interesting to have your reaction to your quotes from your builders.

We had stayed in a house in Burgundy last year and the lady(Dutch) who was renovating the house and out buildings was using labour from Poland. She told me that the 'Lads" measured up all her wood work - doors windows rafters etc and then went back to Poland and bought it all there and brought it back in a Van for her. Risky maybe but she told me she saved and absolute fortune on her local costs to do the same -and the quality was outstanding. interesting concept.

I always have found the polish Tradesmen like the Germans - very good

I use google translate great translator.

I have read of an app that is coming whereby you speak into your phone in english and it translates on the fly into a chosen other language - whatever next !

Once again Thank Bill and Mrs Bill

Robert

[Robert]

I just downloaded the app - Google Translate - and there is a function whereby you speak into your mobile and it translates your English voice into French text. How clever is that.

How reliable is another matter.

Robert

[NormanH]

I wouldn't rely on it confronted by a battle axe of a fonctionnaire  with a regional accent [:-))]

[Lou]

Robert wrote:

" We had stayed in a house in Burgundy last year and the lady(Dutch) who

was renovating the house and out buildings was using labour from Poland.

She told me that the 'Lads" measured up all her wood work - doors

windows rafters etc and then went back to Poland and bought it all there

and brought it back in a Van for her. Risky maybe but she told me she

saved and absolute fortune on her local costs to do the same -and the

quality was outstanding. interesting concept "

I know someone locally who used Polish workers on his renovation.......he'd managed to upset others in the village (long story) and apparently someone informed the authorities that he was employing people on the black - the workers were sent home, and the owner was fined 35,000 euros.

Once you factor that into the costs, it's probably not saving much. In this instance, he couldn't afford to pay the fine and continue the work - the property is now up for sale.

Beware, it can and does happen

Lou

[Robert]

Hi NormanH

Yes, can you imagine the expression on her face http://www.completefrance.com/cs/images/emotions/confused.gif

I was thinking more of pointing me in the right direction really. But it is a clever little piece of coding.

I have a french course coming up which should be fun. I will let you know how I get on.

Thanks again

Robert

[Robert]

Suppose i can't add the little faces being on Mac at my end !

[Robert]

Lets try again

[Robert]

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/images/emotions/confused.gif

[Robert]

aaaaarghj

I give up