Robert Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Hello everyoneThis is my first post - so please bare with me.My name is Robert I am 55 and married, we are now seriously looking at moving to France with our house already up for sale here in the UKIt will be full time and one of a life change, investing in a farmhouse/outbuildings/renovation/to 2 gites type of project. I am looking at two areas, Aquitaine or Charentes region. I am a very handy DIYer and built my own extensions to houses I have had here in the UkThere is a lot on this forum about the start up costs just to get your feet under the kitchen table !I have heard about the following -tax d'habitation - is this a local council type taxtax fonciers- is this a property tax different to the - tax d'habitationTax Local d'équipement - stumped with this oneRedevance d'archéologie préventive' - is this planning permission costs or sign off of project costsAlso may I ask a questions that may be daft. but here goes. If I buy a property with 2 barns and I keep the external shape and structure but change the inside to take rooms, kitchen bathrooms, etc does this require planning permission. And do you need architect drawings before you can get stuck in.I realise that these are really basic questions. But what I am really asking for is to what extent should I be aware of the tax situation when I have finally walked through the gate and made a cup of tea. There is nothing worse than surprises of the monetary kind. I have read some upsetting stories on here about some people not realising the full extent of the 'Set up costs' Before they can get stuck in. Some figures quoted are quite staggering.If anyone can help and lay-out the likely tax situations I would be likely to encounter before any works start then I would really appreciate it. and maybe this could become a list for others with the same apprehensions.May I take this opportunity to thank anyone who responds. And wherever you are, I hope your truly happy.with best wishes Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyh4 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 [quote user="Robert"] I have heard about the following - tax d'habitation - is this a local council type tax yes - based on who is "living at the address" 1.1 each year - you cannot/should not be abe to avoid it by just being somewhere else on 1.1tax fonciers- is this a property tax different to the - tax d'habitation yes - based on who owns the propertyTax Local d'équipement - stumped with this one me tooRedevance d'archéologie préventive' - is this planning permission costs or sign off of project costs Planning permission cost Also may I ask a questions that may be daft. but here goes. If I buy a property with 2 barns and I keep the external shape and structure but change the inside to take rooms, kitchen bathrooms, etc does this require planning permission. yes it is change of use. Make sure you can get permission before yoou buyAnd do you need architect drawings before you can get stuck in. Yes if the floor area will be above 170m² - and with 2 barns this sounds likely. Be aware that almost any change/addition is likely to require at minimum a declaration of the work being done and at worst permission to do it. For example any extension (including a garden shed and in some places a greenhouse! if they are considered permanent structures) over 2m² will require a declaration be made.I realise that these are really basic questions. But what I am really asking for is to what extent should I be aware of the tax situation when I have finally walked through the gate and made a cup of tea. There is nothing worse than surprises of the monetary kind. I have read some upsetting stories on here about some people not realising the full extent of the 'Set up costs' Before they can get stuck in. Some figures quoted are quite staggering. If anyone can help and lay-out the likely tax situations I would be likely to encounter before any works start then I would really appreciate it. Hopefully you are already aware that you will almost certainly be paying the estate agent for the purchase, and that you will be paying all of the "legal" fees at the notaire for the registration of ownership.You will also need to register as a Gite owner I beleive - but maybe an owner can confirmYou will need healthcare for you and your family. You can do this by registering as a business and purchasing insurance to cover those items not covered by the state. Or you can just take 100% insurance. Business registration is generally expensive but the AE scheme seems to be the best (least costly) for new small businesses. and maybe this could become a list for others with the same apprehensions. May I take this opportunity to thank anyone who responds. And wherever you are, I hope your truly happy. with best wishes Robert[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Tax Local d'équipement - stumped with this one me too A tax on planning permission, sort of. And for us as with others, this can be a lot and it doesn't come immediately. At least you know what to ask about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 Many Thanks Andy, your a starSo I can be absolutely clear.tax d'habitation. - This is for the property and payable each year you are resident, irrespective as to where you are on the 1st of january.tax fonciers - If you are resent and own the property this is still payable. Q - is this a one off tax or an annual taxTax Local d'équipement - We will ignore I ever mentioned this one ;-)Redevance d'archéologie préventive - Q - Is this a single tax that covers your planning application and then covers the sign off.Regarding the conversion to Gites - the floor area you mention of 70sm Q - Is this per barn or overall and do you pay the additional tax after it is complete and signed off.Great advise about the planning permission before you buy - I had noticed that on some properties that are for sale it says permission allowed. Q - Is this something you can insist upon as a part of the purchase or is it something you have to apply for yourself before an offer is made.I understand about the estate agent unless their fees are included in the sale price as is sometimes mentioned Q Is this correctI understand the Notairs fees - Q - is this based upon a percentage of the cost of the property.Which leads me to another question - (Call me 'Jonny hundred questions ;-) )I have read somewhere about the dangers of seeing a property with two estate agents representing the seller - and you could end up paying two sets of estate agent fees even though you decide to go through one of them - because the other had shown you the property first ( could have been 3 months earlier ) Q- is this true.Healthcare - Q - Once you pay into it are you eligible to the full service of the French health system - I know this maybe a hugh question to ask if so sorry maybe next time. Once again Andy many thanks for all this sound and good advice. I feel closer to the dream already !Best regardsRobert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyh4 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 [quote user="Robert"]Many Thanks Andy, your a star So I can be absolutely clear. tax d'habitation. - This is for the property and payable each year you are resident, irrespective as to where you are on the 1st of january. Yes annual tax- tax fonciers If you are resident and own the property this is still payable. Q - is this a one off tax or an annual tax This is an annual tax for the owner - residency can be anyone - so for example you could own a falt that you rent out. The renter is responsible for the TdH and you for the TF. Both taxes are based to a less er or greater extent on the rentable value of your property.Tax Local d'équipement - We will ignore I ever mentioned this one ;-) Redevance d'archéologie préventive - Q - Is this a single tax that covers your planning application and then covers the sign off. Payable in 2 installments - at (IIRC) 6 months and 18 months after approvalRegarding the conversion to Gites - the floor area you mention of 70sm Q - Is this per barn or overall and do you pay the additional tax after it is complete and signed off. I hope I said 170m² if not then it was a typo. I think the 170 would cover the whole project but I would confess to not being 100% sure. There is nothing to stop you doing your own plans and just using the architect to sign them off but even this is not likely to be cheap and would run the risk that you might not cover every aspect the planners need and the architect might not necessarily tell you. Great advise about the planning permission before you buy - I had noticed that on some properties that are for sale it says permission allowed. Q - Is this something you can insist upon as a part of the purchase or is it something you have to apply for yourself before an offer is made. You can make it a clause suspensive in the original puchace contracts (Compromis de vente) which means if you do not get the permission you can walk away from the purchase.I understand about the estate agent unless their fees are included in the sale price as is sometimes mentioned Q These days the fees are often included in the sales price. When we bought 10 years ago many places had separate fees.Is this correct I understand the Notairs fees - Q - is this based upon a percentage of the cost of the property. Essentially yes work on 6% and you will not be far wrong Which leads me to another question - (Call me 'Jonny hundred questions ;-) ) I have read somewhere about the dangers of seeing a property with two estate agents representing the seller - and you could end up paying two sets of estate agent fees even though you decide to go through one of them - because the other had shown you the property first ( could have been 3 months earlier ) Q- is this true. Yes - so if there are several agents showing the same property check who has the lowest price first - but also make sure that they are really te same property - the cheaper one for example may not include the 2 hectare orchard when the more expensive one does.Healthcare - Q - Once you pay into it are you eligible to the full service of the French health system - I know this maybe a hugh question to ask if so sorry maybe next time. No - do a search on healthcare here and you will find lots of info. Essentially the State will cover 70% at best. That is why you need (or should have at least) cover for the rest - and beware 100% cover does not mean 100% reimbursement, but as I said do a search.Once again Andy many thanks for all this sound and good advice. I feel closer to the dream already ! Best regards Robert[/quote] Just one word of caution, if you are expecting to make a living from solely Gites from 2 barn conversions, you probably will struggle to live in the manner you would wish. I won't say impossible, but very difficult. Location and quality will be the absolute arbiter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Taxe foncieres is an annual owners tax, payable by whosoever owns the property on the 1st of January. When purchasing during the year, for all the vendors will be liable for this tax, it is usual for the buyer to participate and pays by the number of days remaining in the year, based on the previous year's bill.Taxe d'hab is the same, who so ever lives in the property pays the bill for the year, but if you just own the place and don't live there, it is still due and not passed onto the buyer if you sell. Also this is variable for residents as their family situation affects this bill.The bills arrive in the autumn of the year they are for and have to be paid quite soon afterwards. Monthly installments if you prefer start in January and are paid over 10 months, the 11th and 12th to make up any differences. EDIT Tax Local d'équipement - We will ignore I ever mentioned this one ;-) I answered this one and it can be a lot, a few thousand euros. Interestingly enough, EVERYTHING you want to know is on the web and in french. Remember we are 'just' individuals and you need to actually check on every last thing yourself anyway. Obviously you are not interested in my replies, so I'll not bother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 Dear IdunPlease don't take offence - I am in my office working and dipping in and out of this forum as I am working. So so sorry I did not reply to your first post. I am definitely interested in your replies and I am very grateful for them. Without your help I would still be wondering about all these issues. So I thank you for your input along with Andy too. So please do not be upset with me, no offence intended.With best intentions at heart Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 Hi AndyFirstly - thank you againThe advice both you and Idun have given has been great and has set my mind at rest over the questions I raised. I do fully understand that I will need to do lots of research and clarify lots of things but at least you both have given me the starting point with a much better understanding of the issue I have raised.Your final comment about making a living from 2 Gites. I have often wondered about this and this is the reason I have gone for two over one. I know it is a bit of a lottery and will depend on so many factors some of which I should have control over. I should be in a starting position of having a Gite business without any mortgage. Which is a bonus. But I suppose here lies the adventure and I will never know unless I give it a go !Once again Andy and idun, thanks you for your adviceBest regardsRobert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 The answers to all this is available just by googling.http://www.impots.gouv.fr/portal/dgi/public/particuliers.impot;jsessionid=TVPLJU2KZIHEFQFIEIPSFEY?espId=1&pageId=part_impot_foncier&impot=TFB&sfid=50http://www.impots.gouv.fr/portal/dgi/public/particuliers.impot;jsessionid=E4U1EXWEJSA0LQFIEIQCFEY?espId=1&pageId=part_taxe_habitation&impot=TH&sfid=50https://particuliers.societegenerale.fr/guide_fiscalite/impots_locaux_et_autres_taxes/taxe_locale_equipement.htmlhttp://vosdroits.service-public.fr/pme/F22286.xhtml?xtor=EPR-140%3Fxtor=EPR-140Etc.If you can't understand the French how do you intend to run a business here? Post basic questions that are easily answered and expect other people to do the work for you gratis?That's what you have done here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprogster Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 In response to your question on health care, you should be aware that the French authorities clamped down in 2007 on early retiree/inactif EU citizens moving to France and joining the French health care system. Once you meet UK State retirement age you will be able to apply for an S1 which would enable you to join the French health system, as your cost would be effectively underwritten by the UK. Until then you should be able to get cover for up to a maximum of your first two years in France, dependent on your UK NI contribution history allowing you to qualify for an E106 from the UK, whereby again your cost is underwritten by the UK. After your E106 runs out you would are required to take out comprehensive private medical insurance to be legally resident, which can be difficult to obtain if you or your wife have a chronic health condition, such as hypertension. After five years in theory you would be entitled to join the French health care system, but to date whilst some have tried there has been no confirmation as to anyone who has succeeded so far. The other alternative is that you find employment or set up as an AE, although the latter is not without cost and risky because the AE regime was never intended as a backdoor to the French health care system and could be subject to a crackdown at anytime. Last but not least on French health care, even when you can join, the contributions required as a percentage of income are high and it is not free at the point of care like the NHS, as it only covers 70% of the cost of treatment, so you need to insure for the 30% not covered.As for Gites, well I am sure you are aware the French holiday market is suffering from Gites overload and few are able to make a living from this activity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 Hi Sprogster.Many thanks for this information. It is very much appreciated.A complex issue but you have been very kind to succinctly put it to the point.It is always nice to get some facts from people who understand the system rather than reading stuff online. I would much rather get peoples opinion and direction on information that i Know comes from their own experiences. And to all of you who have given me advice and information I am grateful.Once again Sprogster, many thanksRobert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 Hi NormanHThank you for your post.The nice thing about Forums is that you believe it is full of people who are keen to offer advice from their own experiences as I am sure they too have received similar advice themselves when they started down a similar path.With regard your comment "Post basic questions that are easily answered and expect other people to do the work for you gratis? . . .That's what you have done here..."I am sorry you feel so aggrieved by my posting questions in line with the forum.I suppose the nice thing about forums is that you can either comment or not. If my questions upset you NormanH then please don't respond. But just let me say thank you very much for the links I will look at the these evening and I am sure they will be very useful in my quest for a better understanding of this issues.Thank youBest regardsRobert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprogster Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 The best advice given on this and similar forums is try before you buy, by renting for a year in the area you might like to live. That way if you decide the area or indeed France is not for you after all, you are not stuck with a property that could take years to sell, which is not unusual in rural France. Also the costs of buying and selling a property in France are much, much higher than the UK and on average you would need to sell a house in France for at least 20% more than you paid for it, just to break even. This is against a background of declining property values in most of France, especially in rural areas and where the market was driven by British buyers who have all but dissapeared due to the weak £ and UK economy. The French much prefer newer houses and flats in town or city areas, which are cheaper to heat and run.If possible keep a toehold in the UK property market, as most Brit expats in France do seem to end up returning to the UK for one reason or another and often then find themselves priced out of the UK property market, as historically UK property values outperform those in France, as the UK is far more crowded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Welcome to the baptism of fire Robert.Norman's posting is as valuable to you as any other so far on this thread. Reading and understanding a system in your native tongue and then going out and dealing with other "natives" can be daunting.Try talking with a functionaire/jobsworth in pidgin and you will receive a very quick lesson in how difficult life can be in France. [:D]Norman, try a nice cup of camomile. [6] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Thanks Benjamin [B] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 There was a former member of this forum (I think she looks in occasionally still but doesn't post much as she's in the process of going back to the UK) who added bike hire to her gite complex in order to get into the health service here. There are certainly options for you, Robert. Yes, Sprogster, I take your point about AE being a potentially dodgy route to healthcare but as it was set up in part to encourage people to register businesses and pay cotis rather than operating on the black, I don't get the impression that the FG is much concerned with the implications for the relatively few non-French Europeans who sign up. Robert, a regular poster on here called Albert is a whizz on AE.On the healthcare front, I'd also watch out as to what happens if the political complexion changes after the elections. When we were battling to keep healthcare rights for early-retired non-French European citizens living here, the left was much more in favour of such people paying into the French national system as opposed to paying private insurers for their healthcare and were extremely supportive of us, so it may be that they will back-track somewhat on the current government's stance. However, I would certainly not bet my future on the rules changing and thus would take Sprogster's sound advice then it will be a bonus if things should change.These people have some good guides available:http://www.french-property.com/guides/france/public-services/health/but as with everything, as Norman and Idun suggest, check the French language official site before acting on any info' you glean from English speaking sites - they do go out of date and stuff changes all the time - and without doubt some (although not all) do get skewed as they can have - not always well - hidden agenda!Robert - Here's more on Auto Entrepreneur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 Hi SprogsterOnce again many thanks for your advice.I have read a few times that people suggest renting in the first instance and your comment about keeping a toe hold " because you never know what happens" is also sound advice. I suppose everything is a balance. And for me listening to people who have been there and done that, is much more valuable to me than reading it from an unknown source. Although I don't really know anyone in the forum. It feels right to get a written personal opinion from someone who has taken the time to answer. There seems to be more honesty about it.I have learnt more today from these few posts than a lot of online reading where there are so many different accounts of whats what, Thats because people tend to say it how it is in a forum, and they seem to get to the point a lot quicker - my experience anyhows !Many thanks - I genuinely appreciate it.Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 Hi CooperlolaThank you for this advice and the links. I have just printed out the AE report at 43 pages this may take more then 2 glasses of red ! But good bedtime reading.I have to say I have not heard anything on here that has really put me off. nothing is easy in life and it is all about the adventure too.I do though get the impression thats things are tough over there and especially for those in the holiday rental business. But then again it is tough over here too. what with mass unemployment, cost of living etc. there is nothing worse in life than regret and i suppose i will never know until I do it. Everyone has been so helpful, it is really encouraging and has given me lots to think about and to expire further.i knew when I had started this post that I was asking very basic questions. This wasn't because I had not done some research but rather to get real opinion and a dialogue going with people who have first hand experience, a warm approach to the question I suppose. By asking these questions it then opens up avenues that I may not have thought about in the first instance.And as that old advertising campaign once said ' It's good to Talk "Thanks again Cooperlola and everyone else too. If you were all down the road - I'd buy you all a beer!Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I think that perhaps to the real stalwarts of this forum like Norman and Idun, it must seem that we newbies have it really easy in that we have fora such as these, not to mention the internet, on which we can share and ask for info' without having to do it all for ourselves as they (who came to France long before the EU made it easy to live in another member state) did. They may appear a little gruff at times as a result but their expetise and advice is nevertheless invaluable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 Hi BenjaminYep I understand NomanH and his point. i have just completed 16 months of a french night class and try my best to get more where I can. I have visited France every year for the last 25 or so and have traveled extensively throughout.I am just after some friendly advice and hopefully some banter along the way - don't mean to upset anyone ! lives too bloody short for that !I am at that stage with French whereby I think I am finally getting somewhere then I watch some french news channel and I think oooops maybe Swahili would be simpler.At least it's HAPPY FRIDAY !Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprogster Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 There is not a one size fits all policy for early retirees, as depending on your proximity to State retirement age, health and income, if you are financially well off, it could actually be better paying for private health insurance until your UK S1 kicks in. Because as soon as you join the French health care system you are in for some chunky contributions if you have a good income that could well exceed the cost of a good private health insurance policy and once your S1 kicked in you can join the French health care system without contributions having to be deducted from your retirement income, which would be the case if you had joined earlier.In fact prior to the health care changes there were some better off expat early retirees in France complaining they had to join the health system! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 Thanks SpogsterThe health system is going to be my weekend research project. I shall look into what you advice - Especially if it snows like they are predicting.I live in North Wales and above 1500 feet so when it snows boy do I get it.HAPPY FRIDAYROBERT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Sprogster, can you run a business and not pay cotis? In other words, is it even an option to pay for your healthcare privately if you are registered? I honestly don't know the answer but I think that it's something Robert should be sure of before he goes straight down the private route. Employment's not my thing so I honestly don't know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 It's a good idea to try to struggle with the French on the sites I linked to, and ask on here if you don't understand. The point being that you are in contact straight away with the vocabulary that you will come across.French officials won't have read the advice in English that you may be given, and it's best to start to use the French as soon as you can.For example you asked if the taxe foncière is a one off or annualOn the site I referred to it saysEn tant que propriétaire, usufruitier, ou fiduciaire d’un immeuble, vous devez acquitter cette taxe chaque année.Here the key words are 'devez' (have to) and 'acquitter' (pay) chaque année each year(You can forget'usufruitier, ou fiduciaire' which are are two special cases...a usufruitier has the right to live in or exploit the building, but doesn't own the walls, and fiduciaire is a bit like an agent who manages a building)Nobody on here minds helping people to understand, but please do make an effort to be pro-active, attack the problem, and come back with specific questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 [quote user="NormanH"]French officials won't have read the advice in English that you may be given, [/quote]And they might not even have read the official sites in French, let alone remembered and understood them...[Www] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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