mcnumpty Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Hi, I'm looking for information about registering a power of attorney for my parents who have lived full time in France for the last 15 years and who own a property there. I think this means that if we wanted to register an effective power of attorney to allow myself or one of my siblings to step in should one of them become incapacitated, that we would need to register it both in Scotland, where they are originally from and where I and the rest of my family live and in France, as they own assets there. I've asked on the Fool boards (boards.fool.co.uk) and they advised that someone here might be able to offer some info.Based on what I've been advised so far, I think I will need to get a notaire involved but haven't got a clue how to go about and nobody in my family (apart from my parents) speaks particularly good french. I should perhaps say that I am not anticipating that my parents will object to us doing this, we just can't depend on them getting the wheels in motion themselves. Would anybody be able to point me in the direction of some info about how to get started or even recommend an english-speaking notaire I could approach in the first instance?ThanksMcNumpty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulT Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Ideally, you want a Notaire local to where they live. Lokk on the site www.notaire.fr (parts are in English) and you can search for one that speaks English.Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I think the word you need is a Procuration http://www.notaires.fr/notaires/media/document/1149/160 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Yes, I had this done so that a child could make certain decisions if ever I was unable to do so. It is overseen by the notaire to ensure that there is no abuse but on a day to day basis the procuree can do everything that is necessary.It is quite new in France but seems one of the more enlightened pieces of legislation.Your notaire can sort it put for you, BUT both parties will need to be present when it is signed. Mine explained the detail very carefully to myself and child, which was good. But if your French needs help, then take a translator along with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Norman, can you do something about your link? It's making this thread hell to read! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnumpty Posted February 14, 2012 Author Share Posted February 14, 2012 Thank you very much for all your speedy responses. The notaires.fr website looks like it will be extremely useful and I take on board the suggestion of an interpreter - stupidly hadn't really thought of that possibility myself! I was also doing a bit of digging around myself and I think what we need is something called a "mandat de protection". Either way, I think my parents are going to have to actively buy into the concept, though, as I assume they will have to express certain preferences/wishes, etc. Unfortunately, getting them to engage with this may be harder than all the other bits put together :(.Thanks again,McNumpty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 [quote user="cooperlola"]Norman, can you do something about your link? It's making this thread hell to read![/quote]I have shortened itI would point out that it deals specifically with procuration for people abroad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinabee Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 There is an explanation and a proforma available here for giving a family member power of attorneyhttp://www.leparticulier.fr/jcms/c_35227/donner-une-procuration-a-un-proche Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 If it has to come to it people who can no longer look after their own affairs, or who are at risk of being taken advantage of can be 'mis sur Tutelle', agaisnt their will if necessary. A medical certificate has to be obtained and it all has to go before a 'juge'A 'Tuteur' is appointed to look after their affairs.http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/F2120.xhtmlPlease ask if the French poses any problemsThe recent case of the immensely rich Lilianne Bétancourt (L'Oréal heiress) whose daughter has been fighting to have this for her mother has been very much in the papershttp://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2011/10/17/liliane-bettencourt-placee-sous-tutelle_1588904_3224.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnumpty Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 Thank you all again for your input. Looking into "procuration", I think this is more to do with appointing a proxy who can carry out certain things on your behalf where you may not be able to attend in person and is subtly different from what I was looking for, which is the ability to actually take control of someone's affairs, both personal and financial, and make decisions on their behalf should they lose capacity, which I think is what the "mandat de protection future" is for. There is a suspicion that my father may be displaying early signs of dementia so I'm keen that safeguards are put in place before either of them lose the capacity to consent to this. I'm also hopeful that if we could do this in time, it would avoid the necessity of having to get guardianship set up, which I understand can be complex and expensive.To be honest, it has now come to the point where they really need to be selling up and come home - my mother has developed serious health problems and nearly died just before Christmas but until they take this on board, I'm just trying to see what we can do to protect them in the meantime, albeit from a distance. It's an extremely worrying time for the rest of the family, as I'm sure you'll understand so I'm very grateful for the advice you have all provided so far.ThanksMcNumpty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Did you look at the 'Tutelle' ? This is exactly "the ability to actually take control of someone's affairs, both personal and financial, and make decisions on their behalf should they lose capacity"It has the advantage over the mandat that the person appointed to take control of the affairs is disinterested.http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/F16670.xhtml explains the 'mandat'Below are some extracts from the link to the 'tutelle' page I gave the link to above. Principe La tutelle est une mesure judiciaire destinée à protéger une personne majeure et/ou tout ou partie de son patrimoine si elle n'est plus en état de veiller sur ses propres intérêts. Un tuteur la représente dans les actes de la vie civile. Le juge peut énumérer, à tout moment, les actes que la personne peut faire seule ou non, au cas par cas. Haut Personnes concernées Il s'agit des personnes majeures ayant besoin d'être représentées de manière continue dans les actes de la vie civile, du fait de l'altération de leurs facultés mentales, ou lorsque leurs facultés corporelles sont altérées au point d'empêcher l'expression de leur volonté, et pour qui toute autre mesure de protection moins contraignante (curatelle, sauvegarde de justice) serait insuffisante. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val_2 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 My Parisien friend has Power over his MIL affairs as she has been hospitalised since 96 with dementia. Everything he does regarding her affairs from paying for new clothing to her house maintenance has to go before a judge to be confirmed and any estimates etc too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnumpty Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 Hi NormanH,Yes, I did look at it and as far as I can see it seems that the french system mirrors the system in Scotland to the extent that a person with capacity can grant a future power of attorney to someone else before they lose capacity (as in the mandat de protection future) and which can then come into effect when needed. If it is already too late, however, you then have to go into setting up a guardianship, which I believe is the equivalent of the tutelle and is more complex and expensive. I'm not sure I agree that having a disinterested person making decisions is necessarily better, particularly if it involves having to go before a judge every time something has to be decided and costs the person money just to govern their routine affairs. I can see that there is a risk giving anyone this power but that is why you need to make sure it is someone you would trust to do the best by you.RegardsMcNumpty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I would never trust anyone who might inherit from me, especially if with a partner but that is a personal view.I have already quoted a very well-reported case of conflict between generations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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