Consumer rights - do we have any in France?

[mogs]

We bought from Darty a Siemens dishwasher, it was delivered on Christmas Eve.

Approximately 3 weeks later it stopped washing properly, so a Technician came out and did something which sorted the problem out temporarily, he also said it was to do with water pressure so we fitted a guage.    Again the same Technician came out a couple of weeks later, this time I made him stay longer to show him that the programme selected did not complete its cycle.   He then said it was the electronic chip so ordered a new one.

It worked ok until 4 weeks ago, another technician came out and this time said it was the motor and when we said it was the same problem as before he replied the chip wasn't the fault before.

Are you keeping up with this? [:'(]    The motor arrived and yesterday the technician came (the same one as earlier in the year) and fitted the motor.   I wanted to check it out whilst he was still here and it seemed the start button was jammed, only released by flicking the fuse from the main box.   Anyway he fiddled about and said you have to "do this, do that" and off he went.

I set the programme to start, less than 5 mins later it bleeped and stopped.   All the water was still in the bottom and without flicking the fuse it won't turn off or reset or let the water drain out.

I'm at the end of the tether, I've asked for a new machine as they don't seem to know what is wrong with it, but they say they won't replace the machine.

So my question is, what do I do?   I know in the UK they would have changed the machine without question, why are things so different here?

Is there a consumer association I can go to?

Who is at fault, Siemens or Darty?

Are there any standard strong letters of complaint and disatisfaction I could use to try and put my feelings across

Am I within any rights to demand a new machine, if so what words do I use?

Sorry for long post, you can probably tell my frustration [:@]

[NormanH]

In your region there is

http://www.ctrc-midi-pyrenees.org/accueil/accueil.php

which talks about guarantees 'après vente'

http://www.ctrc-midi-pyrenees.org/droits/dossier3.php

I am surprised by this as I had always been told that Darty have a good after-sales service

[idun]

Mogs, have you been in touch with Siemens?

NormanH has given you some good links, which might help.

 

 

Can't say I was ever a Darty fan, and I wouldn't touch Castorama ever again. In my region Carrefour were usually pretty good and I used to buy a lot of electro menager from the Camif or MDA which were often a lot cheaper and were good with the odd problem we had.

[mogs]

Thank you for your replies.   I couldn't really find my way around the sites you offered Norman, unfortunately my brain doesn't seem to work well when I am so angry [:D] I will try and have a look over the weekend

Idun my next step will be to write to Siemens.

The latest today is that one Darty (whom I was passing)  said they would replace it, but as we bought it from a different Darty that doesn't help us much.   I contacted what I believed to be Darty head office and spoke to a lady who understood and said she would get someone to phone me back.

Said person phoned back, but they refuse to replace the machine as they said it is repairable - they will only replace if something can't be repaired!!!   So, another part is now on order, meanwhile the dishwasher is out of action AGAIN so I'll have to get the rubber gloves out.

Isn't life in France stressful sometimes?

[NormanH]

There is something known as the Garantie légale de conformité

It covers such things as

mauvais fonctionnement ou dysfonctionnement total (panne d'un appareil électroménager en l'absence de mauvaise utilisation).

(electrical equipment which doesn't work properly, or breaks down totally.)

of something bought from a professional

which seems to sum up your case

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/F11094.xhtml

What I am not totally sure about is whether you have the choice to demand the replacement rather than just the repair

It seems to me that you do

En cas de défaut de conformité, l'acheteur choisit entre la réparation et le remplacement du bien.

(In case of non-conformity the buyer chooses between repair and replacement)

but also

Toutefois, le vendeur peut ne pas procéder selon le

choix de l'acheteur si ce choix entraîne un coût manifestement

disproportionné au regard de l'autre modalité, compte tenu de la valeur

du bien ou de l'importance du défaut. Il est alors tenu de procéder,

sauf impossibilité, selon la modalité non choisie par l'acheteur.

The seller can't do as the buyer wishes if that would involve disproportionate cost, given the value of the product or the seriousness of the fault. In that case the seller has to follow the path not chosen by the buyer (in other words, can't just ignore the seller)

http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCode.do?idSectionTA=LEGISCTA000006161839&cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006069565

[NickP]

I am sorry to say; it appears to me and others that I speak to; the answer to your question about consumer rights in France; is there is no such thing.  How dare you expect to be treated like a customer who might just spend more money in the future if you get good service from a retailer. [:D]

[suein56]

[quote user="idun"] Mogs, have you been in touch with Siemens? [/quote]

Good advice, Mogs do write a letter to the CEO send it registered or at very least suivi and let him/her know the situation re your problems and your despair at ever having a machine which functions as it should. 

[quote user="idun"] Can't say I was ever a Darty fan ...[/quote]

I have been up till now but today was a real eye-opener. Scene: at Darty Vannes with my OH and an elderly friend, both in dire need of new mobile phones. As they already have sim cards they needed unblocked phones. Young man who deals with phones was v busy, he called over a nearby colleague to help us, colleague replied 'why', WHY? Good grief we wanted help in choosing and to spend money. Eventually after being reluctantly (un)aided by said unhelpful colleague we left emptyhanded and went to Boulanger. There we were looked after by a delightful female who spent about 20 mins explaining/showing/demonstrating a variety of phones to both parties. Result 2 happy customers and 99€ and 64.50€ spent. 

Perhaps Darty don't need the money, after all the shop was practically empty due to the holidays/heatwave.

Sue

[mogs]

To add to my post, at the time we bought the dishwasher we also bought all our other new kitchen appliances, spending nearly 10,000 euros!

I do expect better than this but I am a mere customer (unhappy one at that).

[NormanH]

[quote user="NickP"]I am sorry to say; it appears to me and others that I speak to; the answer to your question about consumer rights in France; is there is no such thing.  How dare you expect to be treated like a customer who might just spend more money in the future if you get good service from a retailer. [:D][/quote]

There are rights. I quoted a link to the official site which outlines them.

What is missing is a culture of customer service.

[NickP]

[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="NickP"]I am sorry to say; it appears to me and others that I speak to; the answer to your question about consumer rights in France; is there is no such thing.  How dare you expect to be treated like a customer who might just spend more money in the future if you get good service from a retailer. [:D][/quote]

There are rights. I quoted a link to the official site which outlines them.

What is missing is a culture of customer service.


[/quote]

Unfortunately those "rights" are not taught to the counter assistants who deal with the public in France. When you complain I find  it's amazing that the person who deals with that problem is always on holiday or in hospital. Sorry Norman I know you mean well and your info is good, but the reality is; in France generally the customer is always wrong.

[idun]

One should never say 'never' about customer service in France. In 27 years I had absolutely excellent service twice or three times. So it is possible, it's just not something, I ever expected au quotidien[6]

[Clair]

Mogs,

Consumer law is very clear, but I suspect you are not aware of it.

Once "non-conformity" is mentioned, Darty has 30 days to resolve the problem (bottom of this page)

The problem appears to have started almost immediately after the purchase, and several attempts at repairing the item have failed, which clearly points to non-conformity.

You should now write to the shop (registered letter and proof of delivery) stating that you want a replacement or a refund, as per article L211-7 and L211-9 of the Code de la Consommation:

L211-7: "Les défauts de conformité qui apparaissent dans un délai de six mois à

partir de la délivrance du bien sont présumés exister au moment de la

délivrance, sauf preuve contraire.'

L211-9: "En cas de défaut de conformité, l'acheteur choisit entre la réparation et le remplacement du bien."

L211-10: "Si la réparation et le remplacement du bien sont impossibles,

l'acheteur peut rendre le bien et se faire restituer le prix ou garder

le bien et se faire rendre une partie du prix.

La même faculté lui est ouverte :

1° Si la solution demandée, proposée ou convenue en

application de l'article L. 211-9 ne peut être mise en oeuvre dans le

délai d'un mois suivant la réclamation de l'acheteur ;

2° Ou si cette solution ne peut l'être sans inconvénient

majeur pour celui-ci compte tenu de la nature du bien et de l'usage

qu'il recherche."

L211-7 states that problems appearing within 6 months of purchase are deemed to exist on the day of purchase.

L211-9 states that the consumer can choose between repair or replacement.

L211-10 states that if repair or replacement are impossible, the consumer can return the goods and get a refund, or keep the goods and get a partial refund. The same solution is available if either the repair or the replacement mentioned in L211-9 are not implemented within a month of your request, or if either repair or replacement cause a major inconvenience, taking into consideration the nature of the goods and their use.

Keep your letter strictly factual.

Do not rant.

Be clear about what you want from them: a replacement or a refund.

Strictly speaking, Darty could say they have 30 days from the receipt of your letter.

[NormanH]

That's what I was trying to explain [:)]

[Clair]

I know! [:D]

To be honest, this should once the first and then the second attempt at repairing the fault failed.

Shops tend to be evasive unless they're faced with a clear indication of intent.

Faced with an uncertain knowledge of consumer law and a non-French customer, they probably feel they can stall almost as long as they want...

They've had a chance, several chances even, to repair the faulty goods. Now it's time to make them step up.

[suein56]

[quote user="Clair"] ... They've had a chance, several chances even, to repair the faulty goods. Now it's time to make them step up. [/quote]

Clear and precise ... brilliant, Clair.

I have made a copy, just in case ... only hope I don't ever need it.

Sue

Can I start a Clair fan club ... is that allowed ? [Www]

Or is there still a lingering doubt following the 'Clair killed a breadmaker' scandal ?

[mogs]

Many, many thanks Clair for the time and trouble in replying - it must be so nice to know what to say and when to say it if you ever have to deal with issues like mine.

I will now write a letter as you suggest, but should I quote EVERY point or just certain ones?

I spoke to a man at Darty Limoges yesterday and he insists that whilst the dishwasher can be repaired they will repair it not replace it, despite the many faults, should I also mention the inconvenience ie washing by hand, waiting in for technicians etc.?

Again many thanks

[NormanH]

"it must be so nice to know what to say and when to say it if you ever have to deal with issues like mine."

The facts are all there in French on the links I gave, and I also translated the relevant phrases.

[Clair]

Mogs,

In your letter to Darty (registered with proof of delivery - recommandé avec accusé de réception), after giving the usual (make of the dishwasher, date of and cost of purchase):

State that you reported a fault x weeks after the date of purchase and that there have been x number of failed attempts at repairing the dishwasher since then.

List the dates and parts which have been replaced.

List the number of days you have been inconvenienced without use of the dishwasher and the number of calls and visits you have made to the shop in your attempts to obtain a resolution.

State that "le mauvais fonctionnement depuis l'achat démontre que l'article est défectueux et n'est pas propre à l’usage attendu." (malfunctions since purchase prove item is faulty and not fit for purpose).

Follow that with "Conformément aux articles L211-1 et suivants du code de la consommation, je vous mets en demeure de remplacer / rembourser cet article défectueux dans un délai de trente jours, faute de quoi, je devrais saisir le tribunal compétent." (as per art. blahblahblah, I demand a replacement / refund - state your choice - within 30 days or I'll take legal action).

Strictly speaking, this skips the "repair" option which Darty could still legally choose within the 30 days you're giving them.

Considering the previous failed attempts, it's worth a try, but be prepared for them saying no to a replacement or refund straight away, and still attempting to repair until the 30 days have gone.

PS: keep a copy of the letter and the registered post receipt.

PPS: http://www.60millions-mag.com/layout/set/popup/content/view/full/2108

[Chancer]

Inconvenience of having to do the washing up by hand? I have been inconvenienced like that all my life and intend that will always be the case.

Probably better to concentrate on the visits to the shop, the phone calls, the waiting in etc.

Good luck to you and I hope you forgive my levity, I am on your side really!