What happens if the UK leaves the EU

[Aly]

[quote user="Théière"]

I'm rather fond of cherries

[/quote]

Thats nice thanks for sharing

[Oboulez]

I should imaging that many other european leaders will breath a heavy sigh of relief. They really have enough on their plates to not have to continually deal with Briatin's constant snipings from the sidelines, demands for exceptions, exemptions & opt outs. The problem is, that David Cameron has now so isolated and sidelined the UK that he will have few allies left to call upon to support Britain's position in very much. He really has boxed himself into a corner in his attempts to pacify the eurosceptics in his party, whilst trying to keep the LibDems on board. I agree that Britain may leave by accident as it were, as he will be forced into holding a referendum. The problem however - as any reader of the Daily Mail etc will attest - is that the people of the UK are fed such a daily dose of quite franky lies about the EU / Brussels etc. Whilst the majority of these stories can be debunked by 30 seconds Google research - the majority of the readerships really do believe that EU ''diktats' close childrens play parks or are banning footballs because they are a choking hazard etc.

Regariding our position in France in the event of a UK withdrawal, then it need not be terminal. UK citizens live in places like Australia etc quite happily. I suppose that one will merely require a visa and residency permit as existed before. Myself - I intend taking out French nationality as soon as possible. Her indoors can stay a GB citizen if she wants. I have had my complete fill of the UK after serving it for over 30 from the age of 16, asking for and receiving nothing by way of benefits, and watching in sheer sadness & dispair at the way it has been destroyed socially, economically & culturally over the past 15 years or so.

[idun]

As if?

Really have we been reading the same news? It isn't just the UK that is getting sick of certain aspects of the way the EU is ran. There is a group of sensible countries who would like change.

 

And french nationality, well, that is a choice ofcourse. That 30 years you spent 'serving' was just almost the amount of time I spent in France, and I saw enought sadness, dispair, social deprivation and economic deprivation too in France, because I was very interested in the country I lived in. I simply do not like such sweeping statements about the UK, when they are equally valid about the real France. There again, I would hazard a guess that most brits who move to France haven't got a clue about cités etc, or even french city living.

[Clarkkent]

Gary

For all that you pour scorn on the Daily Mail portrayal of the EU, you seem to have swallowed its philosophy whole without chewing.

Would you like to explain, clearly, how exactly the United Kingdom "has been destroyed socially, economically & culturally over the past 15 years or so"?

For what it is worth, a psephologist on Radio 4 yesterday considered that any referendum on EU membership would probably result in continued membership. At the moment there appears to be 48% in favour of staying and 42% in favour of leaving. Clear statements about the effect of leaving on employment, investment etc may well increase those in favour of staying.

[YCCMB]

"I intend taking out French nationality as soon as possible"...That little diatribe puts me in mind of the Fox News forums on the night of the first Obama victory - worth following for the comedic value alone- when redneck after redneck posted "That's it! I'm moving to Canada!" Until finally, a Canadian posted "We don't want you!"

[Rabbie]

"I have had my complete fill of the UK after serving it for over 30 from the age of 16, asking for and receiving nothing by way of benefits, and watching in sheer sadness & dispair at the way it has been destroyed socially, economically & culturally over the past 15 years or so."

 

Does this perceived decline in the UK have anything to do with membership of the EU, or is it just your view of the last government.

A friend of mine, an ex-MP and now a member of the Lords told me once that that a single page directive from brussels could quite easily be changed into a 40 page Act of Parliament to get unpop[ular but necessary legislation through without hurting the government of the day. I am sure all parties have used this dodge despite the boost it gives to UKIP

[PaulT]

Some very sweeping statements Gary.

I suppose that one will merely require a visa and residency permit - suppose they do not want to give you one.

that the people of the UK are fed such a daily dose of quite frankly lies about the EU/Brussels etc - a very sweeping statement and one that no doubt is said about foreign articles about the Dear Leader of North Korea. So every diktat from the unelected people in Brussels is complete sense.

and watching in sheer sadness & dispair (sic) at the way it (the UK) has been destroyed socially, economically and culturally - interesting thread elsewhere about 1200 cars being torched as the French celebrate New Year, and of course the French economy is absolutely first class, France Credit Rating AA1, UK Credit Rating AAA

I have had my complete fill of the UK after serving it for over 30 from the age of 16, asking for and receiving nothing by way of benefits - what is your gripe here, you chose to serve it, did you expect someone to come up to you and say 'thanks very much Gary have a bundle of cash'.

I am sure that France will show you a great deal of appreciation when you become a French citizen and do not have too much of a down on 'her indoors' if she decides to remain a citizen of the backwater that is GB.

[Théière]

[quote user="Rabbie"]

"I have had my complete fill of the UK after serving it for over 30 from the age of 16, asking for and receiving nothing by way of benefits, and watching in sheer sadness & dispair at the way it has been destroyed socially, economically & culturally over the past 15 years or so."

 

Does this perceived decline in the UK have anything to do with membership of the EU, or is it just your view of the last government.

A friend of mine, an ex-MP and now a member of the Lords told me once that that a single page directive from brussels could quite easily be changed into a 40 page Act of Parliament to get unpop[ular but necessary legislation through without hurting the government of the day. I am sure all parties have used this dodge despite the boost it gives to UKIP

[/quote]

Total......................truth [:)]

Also from a friend of mine who is involved with some area of policy for the UK. UK issues frequently tacked on the back of EU directives and Europe (Brussels) gets the blame.

Gary, love your line asking for and receiving nothing, so you got what you wanted? or did you mean to ask for benefits and received nothing?

[idun]

Paul T said:

what is your gripe here, you chose to serve it, did you expect someone to come up to you and say 'thanks very much Gary have a bundle of cash'.

 

 

Now that is interesting about a bundle of cash, as I have really been shocked , really, about the bundles of cash that people get given tax free in the UK upon say retirement, which as far as I can work out is almost as much as the investment in the pension scheme over a lifetime and then they get a pension. I have no idea what it is about, and frankly is as nonsensical as how the housing market became. And as with that, apparently 'I' have understood nothing, or so I am told.

 

[Rabbie]

[quote user="idun"]

Paul T said:

what is your gripe here, you chose to serve it, did you expect someone to come up to you and say 'thanks very much Gary have a bundle of cash'.

 

 

Now that is interesting about a bundle of cash, as I have really been shocked , really, about the bundles of cash that people get given tax free in the UK upon say retirement, which as far as I can work out is almost as much as the investment in the pension scheme over a lifetime and then they get a pension. I have no idea what it is about, and frankly is as nonsensical as how the housing market became. And as with that, apparently 'I' have understood nothing, or so I am told.

 

[/quote] Yes there do seem to be fantastic golden goodbyes for senior executives when they leave/are sacked from their jobs but us ordinary people don't seem to get those[:(].

However if you have been contributing to an occupational pension you are allowed to take up to 25% as a tax free lumpsum. You do have to purchase a pension with the remaining 75%. But as some people may not live very long after doing this it only seems fair they should get a chance to enjoy at least some of their savings

[idun]

Rabbie, you have to remember that in France one has to contribute to a 'private' pension, ie the one that gives a lump sum. The employer has to contribute even more than the employee, and it is a lot. But you cannot take any of it other than as a pension that is paid quarterly, no matter whether you die young or live until you are a 110. edit, and I have to add that you can only have your 'private' pension if you are getting your state pension, and not before.

My brother, got over £80k in a lump sum tax free. IF he has ever paid in that amount over the years, I would very much doubt it and yet he gets a big pension every month too. Makes no sense to me, and frankly this is quite common amoungst people I know in the UK, huge lump sums. Well to me, these are huge lump sums.

In France, the idea is that you pay in and get your pension and that is it, no lumps. And that feels right to me. Getting a huge lump from what I hear regularly are struggling pension schemes, to this little brain feels like reckless madness on the part of the pension schemes and will lead to even more financial problems in the future.

 

[YCCMB]

Idun, I think the main thing to bear in mind, rightly or wrongly, is that any lump sum is limited to a percentage of your total pension and reduces your monthly payments over the rest of your life. It's probably that some people would rather have a lump sum than risk dropping dead before their pension can pay back what they've paid in! Same applies if you take your private pension before your official retirement age. In the longer term, I have a feeling that there will be an increasing number of people who simply won't live to see retirement at all, as the retirement age gets put back further and further..

[woolybanana]

What about the lump sums being paid out to local govt officials who are being made redundant, get large sums of money and then go directly into other nice government jobs. Surely the taxpayer should be able to claw back that money. Just look at what has been paid out in the BBC. Like kids in a sweet shop!

[idun]

Yes, Betty[:D], that is what everyone tells me in England. They think I haven't understood, but I have, it's like me telling people not that long ago that the housing market was mad and unsustainable, apparently I understand nothing at all, maybe a bit simple. It's like I see the bubble that is about to burst and others apparently don't.

In France the money gets paid into the pension fund, but who would say, gimme gimme gimme a lump of it..... and tax free? no one, just not done, but just be happy that the money arrives when the pension kicks in.

 

Let the money be paid out bit by bit, as it should be.

 

[Rabbie]

Some things are done differently in France as compared to the UK. Some better, some are worse and some are just different. It's the differences which make the countries what they are. So just accept that nowhere is perfect and each country has its own funny little ways

[PaulT]

Well, I retired in April with 40 years pensionable service in the NHS. Right from day 1 my pension would be based on:

LUMP SUM - 3/80 x years pensionable service x final salary

ANNUAL PENSION - 1/80 x years pensionable service x final salary

and has been said I could increase the lump sum up to 25% of my pot.

In addition, I contributed between 5% and if I remember correctly 7% of my salary and my employer 14% to my pension (the NHS is not a non contributory scheme).

As Rabbie said that is the British way. If France do it differently so be it and no doubt other countries do it other ways as well.

It has amused me that when the stock market was doing well and hence pensions based on the stock market were doing well not a word was said. Now the stock market is not doing well all the moans are about final salary schemes.

Do note that the scheme that I was in, called the 1995 scheme is closed to new entrants who are now enrolled in the 2008 scheme where lump sums and pension are very different.

[Aly]

[quote user="Rabbie"]Some things are done differently in France as compared to the UK. Some better, some are worse and some are just different. It's the differences which make the countries what they are. So just accept that nowhere is perfect and each country has its own funny little ways[/quote]

I agree in part with your comments but equally we all have the right to challenge the status quo. Living in a country does not mean that you cannot want change or campaign for change. Brits campaigned sucessfully in France for the way changes to healthcare were being applied when these affected them and with  again with considerable sucess with the recognition of UK civil partnerships.

 

[Rabbie]

Of course in democracies like France or the UK people have the right to campaign for change and I would defend that right.

My point was that each country does things in their own way and thats what makes them what they are. I don't think either country is perfect but I wouldn't want them to become soulless clones of each other either.

 

 

[Aly]

[quote user="Rabbie"]

Of course in democracies like France or the UK people have the right to campaign for change and I would defend that right.

My point was that each country does things in their own way and thats what makes them what they are. I don't think either country is perfect but I wouldn't want them to become soulless clones of each other either.

 

 

[/quote]

You have just described the EU project a collection of clone states.

[idun]

[quote user="Rabbie"]Some things are done differently in France as compared to the UK. Some better, some are worse and some are just different. It's the differences which make the countries what they are. So just accept that nowhere is perfect and each country has its own funny little ways[/quote]

 

I agree Rabbie, that many things are done differently. I just have problems accepting what feels to me is lunacy in either country, as simple acceptance will never make things right or good.

[Rabbie]

I do not see why you think the UK system is lunacy. It gives people the ability to chose between a lower pension + lump sum or to take the best possible pension. Things like this have improved the take up of pensions by people who might otherwise not do so

[YCCMB]

[quote user="idun"]

Yes, Betty[:D], that is what everyone tells me in England. They think I haven't understood, but I have, it's like me telling people not that long ago that the housing market was mad and unsustainable, apparently I understand nothing at all, maybe a bit simple. It's like I see the bubble that is about to burst and others apparently don't.

In France the money gets paid into the pension fund, but who would say, gimme gimme gimme a lump of it..... and tax free? no one, just not done, but just be happy that the money arrives when the pension kicks in.

 

Let the money be paid out bit by bit, as it should be.

 

[/quote]

I think if Brits could retire as early as the French, many would have no problem with that! I also think that many in the UK are still feeling the "Murdoch effect" and consider that getting their hands on what is after all rightfully theirs is a lot better than hanging fire and finding that the CEO might have already spent it on lining his own pockets!

[nomoss]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]

 

I think if Brits could retire as early as the French, many would have no problem with that! I also think that many in the UK are still feeling the "Murdoch effect" and consider that getting their hands on what is after all rightfully theirs is a lot better than hanging fire and finding that the CEO might have already spent it on lining his own pockets![/quote]

 

What is the "Murdoch effect", please?

[woolybanana]

It might be the Robert Maxwell effect in disguise?

[YCCMB]

I meant maxwell, of course. I can only say in my defence that I am under the influence of French medication...