15 year rule to remain

[Jazzer]

very sad to learn;

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/93yearold-former-serviceman-loses-ruling-on-expats-voting-in-uk-elections-8606260.html

[idun]

93 years old, well my Dad thinks that everyone over 75, or maybe 70 should lose their right to vote, never mind expats. And he is in his late 80's and has said this for as many years as I can remember.

The old vote and vote for things that suit them and not 'the future'............ that is what my Dad thinks.

We had the right to vote for our first 20 years in France and then the rules changed. We moved to France in the early 80's too, so this bloke must have had the same rights as us, ie 20 years initially!

Also, as he is married to an italian, he would be able to take italian citizenship easily and vote there.

[NormanH]

Yes I saw that and fumed [:@]

The point is that we are obliged to pay taxes in both countries but have the right to vote in neither in National elections to say how our taxes are spent.

I would happily accept either no vote in the UK and no tax in the UK,

or A vote and pay tax....

[YCCMB]

I am confused as to the relevance of this being an "ex-serviceman". Does this make a difference? If an ex binman had brought the action, would this have merited a mention?

And, Norman, I'd happily accept the no vote/no tax issue for you. However, I do think that for anyone whose salary was paid for by deductions from the salaries of others (i.e. anyone in the public sector), then they have a right to leave the country, but the country still has a right to get some of its money back...especially when a lot of those in public sector employment receive much more generous pensions and retirement options than those in the private sector. It's called having jam on it.

[Jazzer]

Personally, I do not think it relevant, whether it is an ex-serviceman or a dustman. What is relevant is the fact that some of us who paid tax all our lives( I started work at 16 retired at 65 and carried on paying taxes from my pension) and I have also been paying taxes here fro the last 15 years. Surely I should have the right to vote somewhere?

I know the Italians have an MP to represent them in the UK and I think the French may also have one.

[parsnips]

[quote user="Jazzer"]Personally, I do not think it relevant, whether it is an ex-serviceman or a dustman. What is relevant is the fact that some of us who paid tax all our lives( I started work at 16 retired at 65 and carried on paying taxes from my pension) and I have also been paying taxes here fro the last 15 years. Surely I should have the right to vote somewhere?

I know the Italians have an MP to represent them in the UK and I think the French may also have one.[/quote]

Hi,

 Being able to vote for the people who tax you is a fundamental right, for which the Americans fought the War of Independence .  So logically we should have full voting rights in France , and for those of us who also pay tax in the UK , there as well. 

[YCCMB]

Then follow the example of Mr CdL and move to the USA!

Nobody has taken away anyone's right to vote, except at the point where it becomes fairly clear that the "voter" is about as in touch with the country they've abandoned as they are with life on Mars. You can keep it by the simple expedient of living in the UK.

By definition, anyone paying tax on a pension is doing so because they are earning above the tax threshold and therefore considered well enough off.

This is another of those pieces of legislation that many are aware of, yet they still make a decision to move to another country. If an individual makes a lifestyle choice (I don't believe too many folk are being held overseas against their will) then they must weigh up the pros and cons, including taxation and voting issues, and make their decision accordingly, which I venture to suggest the majority have done, and considered the loss of voting rights after 15 years' absence is a small price to pay for living their preferred lifestyle.

Folk who left the UK and forfeited their right to the WFA were quick enough to herald as a victory their right to claim it, because they wanted parity with pensioners in the UK. OK, so another element of that parity is being on the same taxation footing. The fact that people lose their voting rights after 15 years is the tradeoff.

In my view, if you're resident of another country and want voting rights there, you should take citizenship, if indeed it means that much to you to vote. I'd make it a condition that you passed a quiz, though, to identify photos of the main political figures and to outline the politics of the main parties.

I'd be a bit scared of letting too many people who don't live here have a vote. If there's the slightest chance they could vote on issues which will have no effect on them, then I think that's grossly unfair.

[NormanH]

I agree with parnips, but would add another element, that of nationality.

If I took French Nationality or dual nationality I would be able to vote in France.

That means here in  France nationality  is associated with the right to vote, and even if they move abroad that right is retained as in several other European countries.

I have not given up British nationality however, merely lived in another country, so why is my British nationality not associated with a vote?

I suppose it comes down to deciding whether residence or nationality is more important.

[Judith]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]

In my view, if you're resident of another country and want voting rights there, you should take citizenship,

[/quote]

Which rather negates the whole idea of free movement of people within the EU ....  as there is no requirement to change nationality to live and work elsewhere  in the EU ....

[YCCMB]

Ah, but the world doesn't begin and end with the EU, does it? Besides which, this is one small example of the many anomalies within the EU. There's no requirement to be British to benefit from the services of the NHS if you move to the UK, but in  France there's a requirement to have sufficient cover and funds not to be a burden on the state, including a requirement for medical top up insurance. There is indeed no requirement to change nationality to live elsewhere within the EU, but neither is there a requirement to vote. If you so wish, you can vote in your EU country of residence at local elections, but what sort of outcry would there be if, for example, the EU nationals living in the UK were all automatically given the right along with their residence to vote in UK parliamentary elections without taking nationality? Mr Farage would be laughing all the way to the polling booth.

[Pickles]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]this is one small example of the many anomalies within the EU. There's no requirement to be British to benefit from the services of the NHS if you move to the UK, but in  France there's a requirement to have sufficient cover and funds not to be a burden on the state, including a requirement for medical top up insurance. [/quote]

I recall looking this up some while ago, and IIRC, the "French" requirement not to be a burden on the state is, I think, actually an EU requirement, which the UK just doesn't enforce. It's one of the caveats written into the freedom of movement principle.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Pickles"][quote user="You can call me Betty"]this is one small example of the many anomalies within the EU. There's no requirement to be British to benefit from the services of the NHS if you move to the UK, but in  France there's a requirement to have sufficient cover and funds not to be a burden on the state, including a requirement for medical top up insurance. [/quote]

I recall looking this up some while ago, and IIRC, the "French" requirement not to be a burden on the state is, I think, actually an EU requirement, which the UK just doesn't enforce. It's one of the caveats written into the freedom of movement principle.

[/quote]

Either way, it's an anomaly. Of which, as I pointed out, there are many. It's possible to be as selective as one likes with all these anomalies, it doesn't stop them from existing. It's unfortunate, even plain wrong, but in the end people (I'm repeating this like a mantra it seems) like to choose the bits that may benefit them personally and ignore the rest.

[nomoss]

[quote user="Judith"][quote user="You can call me Betty"]
In my view, if you're resident of another country and want voting rights there, you should take citizenship,

[/quote]

Which rather negates the whole idea of free movement of people within the EU ....  as there is no requirement to change nationality to live and work elsewhere  in the EU ....
[/quote]

You can vote for a representative in the European Parliament whatever country you choose to live in.

If you choose to move out of the country of your nationality you should be aware of what that implies, not moan about it after the event.

 

 

[Jazzer]

None of us are "moaning" about it.. Yes, we knew what the situation was/is. I will continue to live in France,enjoy French life, and it will not eat me up.

However it does not alter the fact that it is a basic human right that so many have fought for over the centuries.

As to a point made earlier that if the vote was granted in French elections, many may not know who or what they were voting for, would preclude a great proportion of the UK population from voting, if put to a test.

[YCCMB]

I'm curious as to the extent to which people who have been out of the UK for in excess of 15 years would know what they were voting for in the UK, if put to a test. Least of all when you consider they'd have to be on the electoral roll and vote in a specific constituency...a constituency where they haven't lived for at least 15 years. It's like me voting for the MP for Bolton when I live in Windsor. What possible knowledge could I be expected to have of the local issues which I'm voting to influence? And yes, I know we're talking about national elections, but we're still voting for a local MP: one whose agenda must include an element relating to influencing local issues.

Yes, the right to vote is indeed  a basic human right. You still have that right. Just not in UK national elections.

[NormanH]

If you choose to move out of the country of your nationality you should

be aware of what that implies, not moan about it after the event.

However one has the right to try to change things, albeit that the task is made more difficult by having the vote taken away from one.

It seems to me that this is an issue where things could be standardised across  Europe.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="NormanH"]

It seems to me that this is an issue where things could be standardised across  Europe.

[/quote]

ROFL! Now there's a novel concept!

[Jazzer]

... but this is the whole point-we do not have the right to vote either in the UK or in the country in which we pay taxes.

As to the UK how many people for example know the difference between the European Court and the European Union?

And yet they will be able to vote in a referendum.

[Pickles]

[quote user="Jazzer"]As to the UK how many people for example know the difference between the European Court and the European Union?

And yet they will be able to vote in a referendum.[/quote]

Thread drift, I'm afraid, but I see the (upcoming?) referendum being played out in exactly the same way as the proportional representation referendum, in which I felt there was no real attempt to present both sides of the argument in a clear, objective manner but was instead left to campaign groups - funded by the taxpayer - to spread, at the mildest, disinformation, and at the worst, outright lies. The most arrant piece of specious nonsense that I came across was the radio ad which equated an election process with a horse race, as if they should be the same thing.

[Jazzer]

Not meant as "thread drift", just a response to those who feel that UK nationals may not understand French politics and those who have have not kept up with UK politics,

[Pickles]

[quote user="Jazzer"]Not meant as "thread drift", just a response to those who feel that UK nationals may not understand French politics and those who have have not kept up with UK politics,[/quote]

Sorry, Jazzer: I wasn't accusing you of thread drift: I was the one who was drifting.

[idun]

 Betty it is true, look at us for our first 15 years. Once we moved nulle part, it would have taken a sacré effort on our part to get UK newspapers. Only french tv, first being black and white.......... and radio, well we could pick up french radio, and our radio had as crackly a world service as you could imagine, we rather felt that people would have been huddled around their radios in the same fashion trying to discern the odd word during the War. And apart from news of the Falklands War, we simply did not bother. And we didn't have a phone for our first two years and then it was very expensive to call 'home' so rarely used for that. Our main contact with 'home' was via written letters.

And yet we could vote in the UK, and we could vote for our first 20 years, maybe even 25, but I suspect it was 20. And vote we did.

Initially I suppose we never knew when we would return. And then, and it was not too many years into our time in France, we were sort of blocked with our lives because the implications of 'pensions' came into play and the decision was made to stay until retirement. I suppose we always voted when we could, was because we wanted some say in our futures. Not that it works like that in reality, but one can always hope.

[idun]

Now I have a 'silly' EU question. Someone marries someone with a different nationality and can after rather a short amount of time, take their spouses nationality too, so becoming dual nationality.

Can they vote in two countries general elections?????

[Jazzer]

I can see what you meant now! I agree with your sentiments.