UK pension entitlement

[seb47]

So sorry if this has been answered elsewhere - we all have heads spinning trying to keep up with posts each day.

Question: if one spouse reaches UK retirement age, does the other older one also become entitled at the same time?

Thanks to all, Sue.

[Gardian]

Sue ........

You're not alone - most are 'spinning' too.

Reading between the lines, you have or are about to reach UK retirement age of 60.  Your husband has yet to reach 65.

If, because of your UK contributions, you have a State pension entitlement, then you will get an E121 for yourself and (on request from Newcastle) get one for your husband.  These should be submitted to your local CPAM. 

This should ensure cover for both of you (but you'll need a mutuelle top-up), but there's no guarantee (although goodness knows why, because if Newcastle issues your OH with an E121, then they're saying that they'll pick up the tab).

This is our very recent experience, but I can offer no guarantees - probably OK though. 

[BJSLIV]

although goodness knows why

Presumably because the French don't think the amount they receive from the UK is adequate to cover the risks involved.

Many people have been able to register in this way, but in the current climate I expect this area to come under intense scrutiny.

[Gardian]

Well maybe, but if the UK issue E121's for both parties, then that should be that.

The question of whether what 'France' receives from the 'UK' (and whether it is adequate), is a matter for negotiation between the two countries and one which doesn't bother me overly.

[BJSLIV]

then that should be that

Unfortunately the decision whether to admit , "the other half" is made by the French It is their decision as to whether the second person is a dependant. If its a husband with a large pension who depends on a wife with a very small state pension, then questions can be asked.

[chessfou]

[quote]Presumably because the French don't think the amount they receive from the UK is adequate to cover the risks involved.[/quote]

Apparently the transfer figure is approx € 3,750* (found on a thread here, I think) while the relevant comparative figure is ca. € 2,800  (my figure derived from the 2006 "average" cost per head of the French health system: € 3,138** which includes the cost of CMU-C, which seems to average out at about € 338 per capita, although I have my doubts since that 338 seems quite a low figure to me). Therefore I think you may be putting thoughts into French heads which aren't there (or only in those of some xenophobic on-line posters).

* It would be nice to see a proper source for this figure.

** "Les comptes nationaux de la santé en 2006," Direction de la recherche, des études, de l’évaluation et des statistiques (DREES)

[Patf]

I rang the people at Newcastle about this a few months ago and the person said it used to be £2000 per person pa but she wasn't sure how much it is now. I've posted this before, and someone asked Ron recently but I don't think he replied.

[cooperlola]

The pertinent question here is as to whether the contribution made by the UK is in fact per capita or per E121/E106.  If the latter, that could explain the reluctance to admit a higher earner as a dependent.

When I came off my E106 (a year before my o/h) and "piggy backed" onto him - my CPAM was very interested to see both our incomes before they would "rubber stamp" this.  I got the feeling that if I had had a much higher income, then they might have questioned my "dependence" status.

[powerdesal]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

The pertinent question here is as to whether the contribution made by the UK is in fact per capita or per E121/E106.  If the latter, that could explain the reluctance to admit a higher earner as a dependent.

When I came off my E106 (a year before my o/h) and "piggy backed" onto him - my CPAM was very interested to see both our incomes before they would "rubber stamp" this.  I got the feeling that if I had had a much higher income, then they might have questioned my "dependence" status.

[/quote]

What happens if all the income is in joint names, do they assume 50% each person?

[cooperlola]

Golly p/d!  I guess this would only apply to investment income (who has a joint company pension)?  You are talking now about something I know nothing about!!  I've never been in the happy position of having spare capital lying around...[:D]

[powerdesal]

[quote user="cooperlola"]Golly p/d!  I guess this would only apply to investment income (who has a joint company pension)?  You are talking now about something I know nothing about!!  I've never been in the happy position of having spare capital lying around...[:D][/quote]

Company pension .........Whats that?

Investment income IS our pension.[:(]

[mint]

Powerdesal

Investment income, what is investment income, pray?

[cooperlola]

We all provide for our old age in the way in which we can, I guess.

Back to topic, it's a good question, p/d, but as I said, it is only pertinent if the UK contributions to healthcare abroad are per E106/121 holder, or per capita.  That's what I don't know.  Anybody?

[Arcalot]

We've been following this thread with interest as it is certainly applicable to our situation.  I've just rung Newcastle to enquire about those 3750€ contributions they make on our behalf and I was told it was per person, not per couple. So refusing cover under E106 to the spouse who is a 'dependent', and from January our cover will be based on my wife's entitlement, as she worked a few months longer than me, when I am the person with the revenue (from a company pension  -  my wife has deferred her company pension till she is 60), is hardly justifiable, if the CMU are receiving dual contributions.  I am beginning to wonder if this refusal is forthcoming, as my wife has already been issued with a new photo Carte Vitale, covering the new period, but I have not been asked to supply any photos for the renewal of mine   -  due in January.

So far this thread has only mentioned refusal of cover to a dependent under E121.  Has anyone been refused, or know anyone, who has been refused cover in these circumstances, under E106?

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Arcalot"]We've been following this thread with interest as it is certainly applicable to our situation.  I've just rung Newcastle to enquire about those 3750€ contributions they make on our behalf and I was told it was per person, not per couple. So refusing cover under E106 to the spouse who is a 'dependent', and from January our cover will be based on my wife's entitlement, as she worked a few months longer than me, when I am the person with the revenue (from a company pension  -  my wife has deferred her company pension till she is 60), is hardly justifiable, if the CMU are receiving dual contributions.  I am beginning to wonder if this refusal is forthcoming, as my wife has already been issued with a new photo Carte Vitale, covering the new period, but I have not been asked to supply any photos for the renewal of mine   -  due in January.
So far this thread has only mentioned refusal of cover to a dependent under E121.  Has anyone been refused, or know anyone, who has been refused cover in these circumstances, under E106?
[/quote]There have been no cases yet that I remember but that is because they all tend to expire at the same time - around Dec/Jan. When your    E106 expires then, yes, you will under the new interpretation of the legislation, lose your rights to the CMU as the French government will no longer be receiving you 3750 euros.  If you then transfer and are able to "piggy-back" onto your wife's E121, then the French government will get their euros and you will get cover.  It's a simple rule E form, UK pays, you get cover; no E form, nobody pays, you lose cover and must get private insurance.  But there are chinks appearing and we're still working on it to see how legal the latter is under EU law.

[krusty]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

When I came off my E106 (a year before my o/h) and "piggy backed" onto him - my CPAM was very interested to see both our incomes before they would "rubber stamp" this.  I got the feeling that if I had had a much higher income, then they might have questioned my "dependence" status.

[/quote]

I think this shows all cpam offices are different , mine (Limoges) asked no question when the wifes e106 ran out just put her on mine after signing a simple form ....nothing mentioned about income .

[cooperlola]

[quote user="krusty"][quote user="cooperlola"]

When I came off my E106 (a year before my o/h) and "piggy backed" onto him - my CPAM was very interested to see both our incomes before they would "rubber stamp" this.  I got the feeling that if I had had a much higher income, then they might have questioned my "dependence" status.

[/quote]

I think this shows all cpam offices are different , mine (Limoges) asked no question when the wifes e106 ran out just put her on mine after signing a simple form ....nothing mentioned about income .

[/quote]It was only a perception, Krusty, to be fair.

[Arcalot]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

There have been no cases yet that I remember but that is because they all tend to expire at the same time - around Dec/Jan. When your    E106 expires then, yes, you will under the new interpretation of the legislation, lose your rights to the CMU as the French government will no longer be receiving you 3750 euros.  If you then transfer and are able to "piggy-back" onto your wife's E121, then the French government will get their euros and you will get cover.  It's a simple rule E form, UK pays, you get cover; no E form, nobody pays, you lose cover and must get private insurance.  But there are chinks appearing and we're still working on it to see how legal the latter is under EU law.[/quote]

We have already had our E106 extended by Newcastle   (from Jan 2008 to

Jan 2009), but this time based on my wife's contributions and I should

be able to 'piggy-back' on that, as long as our local CPAM  agree to

issue another CV for me.  But as I mentioned we live on my pension

revenue, and there have been instances reported where cover for the

'dependent', who has a higher income than the actual E form

beneficiary, has been refused  -  at least refused in the case of E121

.  Up to now  (in fact till January) our cover is based on my

contribution & my wife has been 'piggy-backing' on me.  E121 won't

figure in our case for another year after that, when my wife becomes

eligible to that cover and it's now clear that we'll have to take out

private insurance for the intervening period.  As long as that's only

for the one year, we can manage.  But if the CPAM refuse to allow me to

'piggy-back' even for the next year  (under her E106), then there's the

strong chance they'll refuse to allow me to piggy-back on her E121 in

2010.  In which case I may be lumbered with paying for private

insurance for up to 7 years  (or maybe only 5, if the French Residency

5 year rule can be applied here).  If this turns out to be the case,

then it begins to look as though our move to France in May, which was

calculated on the old system, may have to be revised.

[cooperlola]

There is a box on the E106 which says something like "including dependents living with you."  You need to make sure that the issuer (UK) has checked this box on your wife's E106, and subsequent E121.  Then the CPAM will accept it, as they know the UK  will pay.  If yours is checked and your o/h's not, then I would go back to Newcastle and ask them if this can be changed.

[Arcalot]

[quote user="cooperlola"]There is a box on the E106 which says something like "including dependents living with you."  You need to make sure that the issuer (UK) has checked this box on your wife's E106, and subsequent E121.  Then the CPAM will accept it, as they know the UK  will pay.  If yours is checked and your o/h's not, then I would go back to Newcastle and ask them if this can be changed.[/quote]

Yes, you're right. On the copy of the form we gave CPAM a few months back, the box (4) saying:  'The above mentioned worker and the members of his family residing with him" is crossed.  So hopefully they will act on that, despite the disparity of income.  Puzzling, though, that they've already renewed my o/h's CV, but not mine yet.  Even the desk assistant at the CPAM office, when we raised the matter the other day, was puzzled at that.

[cooperlola]

As long as yours is still running, you carry on on that.  When it is approaching expiry, you ask the DWP for a letter (which comes in French and English) stating that you are no longer entitled.  You take this to the CPAM with your wife's and they then transfer you on to hers.  Voila. (I know this because I had the same thing with my E106 as it had a shorter time-span than my o/h's.)

[krusty]

[quote user="Arcalot"]Yes, you're right. On the copy of the form we gave CPAM a few months back, the box (4) saying:  'The above mentioned worker and the members of his family residing with him" is crossed.  [/quote]

box 6.1 would be a good one "until this certificate is cancelled"   

[cooperlola]

Nice one, Krusty.  How about forging it.....?[6]

[krusty]

dont tempt me  [:P]

[Arcalot]

Right, so I need to go back to the  DWP  -   I thought the expiry date would be obvious to the CPAM.  We did explain that we were transferring over to my wife's cover from mine, when we took the forms in  -  no language misunderstandings  -  we speak fluent French.  Presumably you mean take the letter in with my wife's CV  -  the E106 forms were in their hands months ago.