BREAKING NEWS ON EXPAT HEALTH COVER

[cooperlola]

Well done, you two!  The thick plottens....

[Sunday Driver]

I've also being corresponding with the Embassy, my last e-mail being very similar to that of cheryla. 

Just received this reply:

We are currently liasing with the French authorities regarding the changes
within France's healthcare system. I will email you once we have received
the French government's final statement.
 
Kind Regards
 
Danielle Ducos

British Pro-Consul
British Embassy Paris
Tel: 01 44 51 32 00

[cooperlola]

Ah, so this statement wasn't the final one then. [:-))]

Thanks, SD.

[Boiling a frog]

And  at 1504 yesterday 19/9/2007 I received this reply

Thank you for your e-mail.

 

Enquiries concerning health cover for British Citizens residing in France should be made to the DWP Overseas Medical Benefits help-line on 00 44 191 218 1999 which is open on Mondays to Fridays from 08.00 to 20.00. Alternatively, information can be obtained direct from the English language service of the Caisse Primaire d'Assurance Maladie (French social security service) on 00 33 8 20 90 42 12 and from the CLEISS (France's helpdesk for international mobility and social security) on 00 33 1 45 26 33 41.

Yours Sincerely,

Consular Services.

 

A great help considering I had already phoned CPAM english help line who said that they did not know what the legislation was.

 

[makfai]

[quote user="cheryla"]

Has anybody written back to the lady at the Embassy to question the anomolies in her reply?

[/quote]

 

As it was I who received the email I did email her (at 19:49 19.9.07) as follows:

Thank you for your reply. 

 

Could you clarify two points?

 

FIRSTLY

You say, inter alia,  that:

 

However, the French Ministry of Health has assured us that the provision of
healthcare to people already resident in France and subscribed through the
French system will not be affected.

However you refer me to http://www.securite-sociale.fr/comprendre/europe/europe/cmu_inactifs.htm which says inter alia,  that:

 

Pour les personnes inactives qui bénéficiaient déjà de la CMU du fait de la réglementation antérieure, il leur est accordé un délai pour 6 mois, pour s'affilier à une assurance privée. Pendant cette période, ils continueront à être couverts par la CMU.

These two statements do not seem compatible so what is the correct position?

 

SECONDLY

The document at  http://www.securite-sociale.fr/comprendre/europe/europe/cmu_inactifs.htm  is entitled:

 

Point d'information: Affiliation à la CMU pour les ressortissants britanniques inactifs

 

Why does this only apply to les ressortissants britanniques inactifs

 

Thank you once again for your help.

 

I have also emailed the 'Social' Attache at the French embassy in London as follows:

 

To: [email protected]

Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 9:28 AM

Subject: Advice

I refer to the advice at http://www.securite-sociale.fr/comprendre/europe/europe/cmu_inactifs.htm

 

I would be grateful if you would clarify if para 3

3) Pour les personnes inactives qui bénéficiaient déjà de la CMU du fait de la réglementation antérieure, il leur est accordé un délai pour 6 mois, pour s'affilier à une assurance privée. Pendant cette période, ils continueront à être couverts par la CMU.

applies to only those in para 2

 

2) Il n'y a aucune modification pour les personnes qui peuvent présenter une attestation (E 106 ou E 121) de droit aux prestations d'assurance maladie délivrée par l'administration britannique. Ils continuent à pouvoir s'inscrire auprès de la CPAM de leur lieu de résidence pour bénéficier des prestations françaises servies pour le compte du régime britannique, aussi longtemps que ces attestations sont valables.

or does para 3 apply to those who are 'inactive' but who are not in possession of a current E106 and already a part of the CMU?

 

 

The reason I ask this is that the British Embassy in Paris said yesterday: 

 However, the French Ministry of Health has assured us that the provision of healthcare to people already resident in France and subscribed through the French system will not be affected.

Editing Note: I did include the full content of the email I received from the British Embassy not just the (above) extract.

 

Once I receive a reply I will post it in full for all to read.

[Helen]

Not really news but I've just been told that the local CPAM  has received no directive, no information about any change.

I had an appointment with  an insulin pump trainer this morning and explained to her the problem( I didn't want to go into hospital to start using a pump next week only to have to give it back six months down the road.)

 She spent the next hour and a half  ringing people trying to find out hard  information for me. There was none.

 

[Magoo]

Hi Helen

As a Type I too I would be interested - make that desperately interested - in any news/findings re the changes and it's effects on people like us!!  I have a Carte Vitale as my 106 ran out and am affiliated with CMU with 100% rights regarding my Diabetes.  All this worry does not help with my blood control!!!!

[sunshine 2]

The lack of concrete info about the future for us Brits who have belonged to the CMU and been paying our 8% is prooving very stressful for me and I know that others, also with serious illnesses who will not get them covered by private insurance, are feeling the pressure. 

I have written to Mme Beloeil at the British Embassy as she is the one a couple of people have posted as having written to them with the original positive info that current members of CMU would be allowed to continue.  Clearly I have not had a reply or I would have reported it here.  I don't think it would harm if as many of us as possible wrote to the British Embassy in Paris expressing our concern and asking for info.  There is an email link on the home page of their web site.

Does anyone on this Forum have an understanding of who exactly attended that crucial meeting with the French ministry of Health on 10th Sept (I think that was the date), after which the very positive statement about us being able to continue in CMU was put out??? I would like to communicate direct with someone who was at the meeting because it appears that the French went away with a completely different understanding. Someone must have taken minutes of the meeting and I would have expected that they would be circulated and agreed by all who were present at some stage. Whoever was at that meeting needs to be having further talks/ urgent discussions to clarify things and to 'fight our corner'.  I would prefer to communicate and lobby someone who has taken part in the discussions.  If anyone has any info about who was present or a named person that is responsible for acting on our behalf then please share it, as that is the person we should really be communicating with - Mme Beloeil has no direct responsibility herself

[Boiling a frog]

I spoke to the Dept of Pensions Overseas Division yesterday and they had just received an e mail from the British Embassy in Paris who are in continuing talks with the French

 

There is no change at present as far as the rules laid out by the French Social securite except on one point.

Anyone on an E106 at present willl have to find private health assurance once E106 expires.

Anyone on E121   No change

Anyone on CMU at present will have until 30th April 2008 and then will have to obtain Private health assurance

except  if you have been in France for more than 5 years and can prove that you have been here for more than 5 years your CMU cover will remain

The DWP were unable to tell me what proof will be required or at what date the French will go back 5 years from

This part is not written in stone as yet

Everything is in a state of flux at the moment ands even the liason officer on the French side for the DPW cannot give them (DPW) any answers

[Chris]

I've just posted this in error elsewhere

It's raining and  so can't  get on with work outside! I've just been

looking at some other EU countries' embassy sites and guess what, no

mention of changing medical cover for German or Dutch citizens coming

to France, as far as I can see. Are the British being singled out?

Went one step further and looked at French Consulate in London.  Below is the relevant extract:

You are planning to move before you get your state pension (eg: you are already in receipt of your private pension)

You should apply for a form E106 (medical cover for up to 2 years)

- see D.S.S. - Alternatively, a private insurance or voluntary

contributions should be considered when the E106 expires or if you have

not reached the age of state retirement (Contact your local French

social security office).

NB

the sentence "..Alternatively .....voluntary contributions when 106

expires..." I guess this means those that many have been making to

URSSAF for CMU. Also note no mention of Actif or Non-actif or warning

that changes are afoot!

Chris

[londoneye]

Boiling a Frog - is this the final decision, regarding the E106 expiry situation, and if so, are you aware of whether or not all those who are currently holding an E106 which is due to expire in near(ish) future, will actually be advised of the new requirements individually?

Surely there must be a large number of people who don't frequent these types of sites who may, as yet, be unaware of the whole situation?

PS:   I am more than happy to join in with any lobbying or other constructive method of trying to assist anyone with difficulties, at least at the moment while I still have some time.    Losing track a little of what is/not being organised but if there is anything constructive I can do, let me know.

[sunshine 2]

Boiling a frog - thanks that is helpful.  Surely the only proof of having been here is one's completed tax returns in France.  Unfortunately we have not got 5 years worth - will be completing our third one for 2007. 

 

[Boiling a frog]

All I can suggest at the moment  is (providing you have not been out of the UK for more than 15 years) is to contact your local European MP where you previously resided in the UK

http://www.europarl.org.uk/uk_meps/MembersMain.htm

 

To find your local MEP

I have already been in initial contact and am at present trying to compile an e mail with the facts as I see them.

 

And no as I said these are not final decisions I was advised to telephone back to the DWP in a month

[cooperlola]

e-petitions may be worth a look too.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/

I guess that as some things are "not yet decided" or finalised, there is a small excuse, but it is very bad that the government websites where people who are thinking of moving over here might go, do not even have a reference to the possible changes.  How many people are in the process of signing compromis de ventes etc, thinking that the old system is continuing "business as usual"?

The latest news from "The Connexion" on the Exclusive Healthcare website, confirms BtF's findings

http://www.exclusivehealthcare.com/

It is stressed that all Europeans are affected, not just Brits. 

[Boiling a frog]

Rather than whinging on about lack of updates on Government sites get off your backsides and contact your MEP with your concerns

[makfai]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"]Rather than whinging on about lack of updates on Government sites get off your backsides and contact your MEP with your concerns[/quote]

 

I have already written to my MEPs and I have included a copy below. I don't claim to have covered everything but I am hoping to generate some interest.

The problem is there are 9 MEPs which cover my area but if you go to http://www.writetothem.com/ then you can write to them all at once!

FOR ATTENTION OF
Brian Simpson MEP
Den Dover MEP
John Whittaker MEP
Gary Titley MEP
Arlene McCarthy MEP
David Sumberg MEP
Sajjad Karim MEP
Robert Atkins MEP
Chris Davies MEP

North West

Saturday 22 September 2007

Dear David Sumberg, Den Dover, Gary Titley, Arlene McCarthy, Sajjad Karim, Robert Atkins, Chris Davies, Brian Simpson and John Whittaker,

I will be writing in more detail later but I wanted to draw your attention to the problems being experienced by UK citizens residing in France in respect of future health care provision.

The French are just about to change their system so that persons who are not employed or self-employed will be required to seek private health insurance. Although the UK does not apply this directive the French policy is in-line with EU directives.

The issue that has caused serious concern is how this will be applied to UK citizens who are not employed/self-employed but are ALREADY RESIDENT in France.

There is a lack of clarity over whether this policy will be applied retrospectively with the British Embassy in Paris saying: 'However, the French Ministry of Health has assured us that the provision of healthcare to people already resident in France and subscribed through the French system will not be affected.' while the French have announced: 3) Pour les personnes inactives qui bénéficiaient déjà de la CMU du fait de la réglementation antérieure, il leur est accordé un délai pour 6 mois, pour s'affilier à une assurance privée. Pendant cette période, ils continueront à être couverts par la CMU.
http://www.securite-sociale.fr/comprendre/europe/europe/cmu_inactifs.htm

If, as is suggested, the ruling is applied retrospectively then this creates a serious issue for some residents who are currently part of the French CMU (http://www.cmu.fr/site/cmu.php4?Id=5)

The suggestion is that the CMU was not meant for the Brit resident and that they have been 'milking' the system. The reality is that if the CMU system was not meant for ALL residents then it should have been designed appropriately at the time. Don't blame the residents, blame the law-makers. After all, the system is not that old and these types of things are supposed to be prepared by top class professionals! However, the way it was designed, meant that 'inactive' residents were legally and compulsorily swept up in it. They were PROHIBITED from obtaining personal insurance and had to join. That is why there are as yet no significant offerings of private health insurance in France

As regards 'inactive' Brit residents in France needing health care there are three main categories.

Firstly, there are those people who have abused the system by avoiding paying into it.

Equally, there are people who became resident with pre-existing health conditions but genuinely believed that the system as it applied in France (joining the CMU after the E106) was fair. Their thinking on this being based on a comparison of what was on offer in UK where residence automatically means free health care.

The 'new' Brit retired residents in France saw that in France contributions were payable (8%) and a mutelle might be necessary to cover the difference. So, in essence, this meant that they believed they were making a contribution to their health care in France while there were no similar contributions required of new EU residents in UK. If anything the Brit newly residing in France may have felt that, to some extent, they had the moral high ground - at least they were contributing something. More than that - that 'something' had been set by the French Govt so the new resident could hardly be deemed unreasonable if he/she assumed the amount was acceptable to the Govt.

In fact, how many of us bother to check what international financial agreements might be underpinning the various EU agreements - including cross-border health care? We just take these things at face value looking at what they mean to us in practical terms.

There also is a third category of people, i.e. those who became resident and later developed health conditions. They too will have believed that they were making a contribution to health care but now that they need it are being deprived of it.

I have nothing but condemnation for the first category who have ripped off the system but for the remaining two categories I do have both understanding and sympathy.

The fact that these latter two categories - who came to France legally and in good faith - may have pre-existing health conditions which might prevent private insurers offering them private health insurance is a serious matter. It is equally problematic if their health places the cost of insurance beyond their means. Must they now give up their residence? Would this be a 'reasonable' and 'proportionate' result of this change?

What is more, the French Govt has made the decision on this at a time when its own private health insurance industry is not yet geared up to competitively deal with these clients. This means that the effect on these residents cannot have been properly assessed by the French Govt. before the decision was taken.

Frankly, the problems with the cost of the French Health System will not be fixed by this change - its problems run deeper than that - but on a personal basis I have no objections to the French introducing measures to reduce the financial burden in this manner. However, I do not support the retrospective application as I believe its effect will have a disproportionate impact on some existing residents. I also believe that this effect cannot have been adequately assessed in terms of alternative provision - i.e. private insurance - because that 'industry' is not in place.

I believe that the decision to apply the change to existing residents may be 'ultra vires'. I see at as 'unreasonable' and having a 'disproportionate' effect.

I seek your help in ensuring that existing UK citizens who became resident in France in good faith under the then existing legislation/arrangements and who are either covered by an E106 or already part of the CMU should not be affected by this change in policy. It should not be applied retrospectively.


Yours sincerely,

[Chris]

A forum is an opportunity to whinge, if that's what people want to do.  I haven't actually seen any 'whingeing'. Having read many of the posts, including yours,  folk are trying to gather information in a situation that is alarming and has been sprung on them.  The more that are searching every avenue for info and help, the better.  This forum is a place where it can all be shared and perhaps in the end a way forward or group action can be organised.  You never know, even your approach to an MEP may yeild something which you may wish to share.  I suspect at the moment that any response will not be very illuminating. The time to get off backsides is approaching, but let's all do it together once we know where we're going.

[cooperlola]

Thank you Chris.  In fact BaF, I believe many of us have been writing, surfing etc etc and putting a lot of time and effort into getting clarification - much of this without any response.  Once we really know the final details, then this forum will provide a good kick-off point for a number of us to lobby the correct people in a co-ordianated manner.  Meanwhile, there are still points to be clarified, and for those who have long-term illnesses it is a stressful time.  Letting off a little steam around here can help and does no harm that I can see.

[Boiling a frog]

I was making the point that anyone who feels that they have or will be affected should act now before it is too late to act.There is no point in sitting on your backside hoping it is going to go away,or that  we should wait and see,because by that time it will probably be too late to do anything

Perhaps remember these words by Martin Niemoller:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out -

because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out -

because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out -

because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me - and there was no one left to speak for me.

[cooperlola]

My point was that many of us are acting and "whinging" at the same time!

[rothrugby]

Just recieved this from the British Embassy in Paris, looks like the French have moved the goal posts again

Hello

 

Thank you for contacting the Public Enquiries section of the British Embassy in Paris. Please take a look at the following updated information for healthcare coverage in France:

 

---

 

Access to the French healthcare system for early retirees from other EU countries

We have held further discussions with the French Health Ministry and have established that the French Government has now changed its position regarding access to the French healthcare system for early retirees from other EU countries already residing in France.

---

According to the French Government's published statement

http://www.securite-sociale.fr/comprendre/europe/europe/cmu_inactifs.htm )the position is:

---

All inactive EU citizens already accessing CMU healthcare coverage will continue to do so until 31 March 2008 after which they will be required to have their own personal medical insurance, unless their inactive status changes in the meantime.All inactive EU citizens under retirement age (ie those already resident in France and those planning to move in future) who are not entitled to healthcare reimbursement (through the E106 or E109 forms), will be required to have their own personal medical insurance until they reach UK retirement age (and therefore qualify for entitlement to the E121 form), or until they qualify as a French resident (which is after 5 years of regular, uninterrupted residence).People already over retirement age who are holders of an E121 which is registered with the French authorities will remain unaffected.

---

This information is based on what we have been told by the French authorities. We suggest people seek further information from one or more of the following:

CPAM - The French Health Service (English language service):

tel:+33 (0)8 20 90 42 12

[cooperlola]

Rothrugby, thanks.  This is better.  I guess then, taking us as an example, then we need private health cover from 1.4.08 until the 5th anniversary of our official arrival.  Which in our case is September 09.  So that's only 15 months or so which we can put up with, I guess.

However, we were told that we did not need a titre de sejour, so I guess the proof of residence will be the date we began to pay our taxes here.  More food for thought.

[rothrugby]

Cheers cooperlola, it also depends which 5 years they take, calender years or cpam years. Or is it 5 years from now or sometime in the future.

I think that I will only need a couple of months worth of insurance which is a relief but our association, Charente Limousine Exchange will keep working on this problem

[Benjamin]

In the French Social Security document released today where does it say anything about five years of residence?

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Benjamin"]In the French Social Security document released today where does it say anything about five years of residence?



[/quote]Aha!  And of course, communications from our Embassy have been know to be a little short of the truth in the past, haven't they?[Www]