Joshua Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 Gross Lard,It’s a terrible thing that “ Jealousy” It keeps eating away at youJoshua[:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 [quote user="Russethouse"]Perhaps you would not be so keen to promote the idea that you can just sell up a couple of years after moving if it was you involved. Have you any idea of the financial ramifications? [/quote]Exactly RH!! That sentence sums it up - its not that people can't get health care, they just don't want to part with any money for the privilege. If you were back in the UK and needed long term residential care they'd take your house off you anyway!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 [quote user="lebois"][quote user="Scooby"][quote user="Boiling a frog"] What a load of total misinformation.[/quote]Sorry but the facts are correct and I stand by them - and can provide names etc by pm if anyone wants them. Maybe the rules have changed because both my B-i-L and my close friend retired 15 years ago and both drew their pensions immediately. Both entered the police force age 18 - as did my friends husband. Even if the rules have changed, 2/3 of your salary as a pension after only 25 years is a huge amout more than most people on a 40/80ths scheme get - especially when you consider it's paid from a much earlier age. And the 40/80th group are doing extremely well compared to those on private defined contribution schemes. Then there is the group my sister is in who only have the state pension to rely on. Difficult to feel hugely sympathetic really. (As an aside my b-i-l bought a run down farm in one of the national parks (in the UK). He built several new barns, extended the farm house and converted several of the old barns into holiday cottages - doing most of the labouring himself. So although 'early retired' quite capable of doing another job so didn't really justify the big early pension imho - like many others.)The point about Sarkosy was his recent attempt to reduce the generous pension entitlements of certain groups of government employees - notably the railway workers to reduce the drain on the French public pocket. The point I'm making is that a lot of the 'inactifs' I'm sure, will have similar backgrounds, early retirement from comfortable government jobs on a nice big pension (compared to the income of many French), with plenty of proceeds from the sale of a house in the UK - if not a lump sum invested the enough to be mortgage free. Its not suprised the French feel agrieved. No 'inactif' is without healthcare - as groslard said already - you just have to move back to the UK. [/quote]Scooby, thank you for explaining your true motives for 'Forum Baiting.' If you want to try to distract us from helping people less fortunate than ourselves, go ahead, who are we to stop you. But just remember, we will resolve this issue and most will live a long and interesting life, so please keep working long and hard because 'the pot' needs people like you. All the very best,Lebois[/quote]Lebois, how about just accepting that Scooby has a point of view which is different to yours and sticking to the issues rather than getting personal with the "Forum Baiting" jibe. As you know, this is an important issue for many and you don't do yourself any favours by suggesting that one person's use of this forum is any less valid than yours.[quote user="Joshua"]Gross Lard,It’s a terrible thing that “ Jealousy” It keeps eating away at youJoshua[:D][/quote]I'm not really sure what you are getting at here but the infantile name calling "Gross Lard" does you a disservice. If you disagree with groslard, then explain whyDanny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groslard Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 I am not worried by infantile and ignorant personal insults[:D]Groslard was a member of the Commune de Paris..http://www.library.northwestern.edu/spec/siege/docs/PAR00545.htmlMy position is simple:that British people in France should have the same rights and responsibilities as French people, but that should include paying social security charges in the country that pays for their care as well as receiving benefits in the country in which they are living.Is this an unfair, illogical or jealous position to take? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 Those of us who work legally in France do pay French social security charges. At a very high rate, and they cannot be escaped. It's worth remembering that if self employed, we pay the charges ourselves (our accountant reckons at 46% of taxable income), if salaried then we pay about 20% of income and the employer pays about 40%. Income tax is extra.So there are plenty of British who, I feel, more than pay their way. And maybe the scale of those charges, and being able to see the financial crisis behind the outwardly good health service, makes us a little less charitable than we should be towards the asset-rich, income poor type of early retired who have done very well out of the system up to now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 Groslard Actually you are right.You have reduced me to the same levelThat’s to be provocative and callousYou make generalised statements about people you don’t evenknow. You can't imagine how some of us are feeling.If you lived in France and were in the same position as the E106ers, you might think differently Joshua[:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 [quote user="Will"]Those of us who work legally in France do pay French social security charges. At a very high rate, and they cannot be escaped. It's worth remembering that if self employed, we pay the charges ourselves (our accountant reckons at 46% of taxable income), if salaried then we pay about 20% of income and the employer pays about 40%. Income tax is extra.So there are plenty of British who, I feel, more than pay their way. And maybe the scale of those charges, and being able to see the financial crisis behind the outwardly good health service, makes us a little less charitable than we should be towards the asset-rich, income poor type of early retired who have done very well out of the system up to now. [/quote]Dear Will, a balanced and reasoned post and the voice of commonsense as usual. I can't contribute too much on this thread as I don't understand a lot of the issues and therefore am unable to form an educated opinion. However, I am following it in the hope of dispelling some of my ignorance. So, keep up the argument, folks; there's some of us out here listening and trying to be as impartial as possible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boiling a frog Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 [quote user="groslard"]My position is simple:that British people in France should have the same rights and responsibilities as French people, but that should include paying social security charges in the country that pays for their care as well as receiving benefits in the country in which they are living.Is this an unfair, illogical or jealous position to take? [/quote] I entirely agree with you .We should have the same rights and responsibilities,pay our tax habitation and foncieres,pay income tax as per the dual taxation agreements as they apply to UK citizens in France just as French citizens in the UK,have access to the French health care system just as a French person does,either thro working or contributing via the CMU just like a French person,pay the social levy,etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 [quote user="Scooby"][quote user="Russethouse"]Perhaps you would not be so keen to promote the idea that you can just sell up a couple of years after moving if it was you involved. Have you any idea of the financial ramifications? [/quote]Exactly RH!! That sentence sums it up - its not that people can't get health care, they just don't want to part with any money for the privilege. If you were back in the UK and needed long term residential care they'd take your house off you anyway!!![/quote]I think you should go to the FHI web site and read it.They are perfectly happy to pay for health care - the fact is that people may have sold up and moved to France (not a cheap undertaking, even just removal costs, agency fees etc) they buy a house to improve and invest in that house, using local artisans, shopping locally, paying all their taxes and charges etc, then after a year one of them discovers cancer and treatment is started - several months after an operation chemo is ongoing and their oncologist has a programme of treatment planned. Then without any notice the French government start saying that in a couple of months time we are going to stop paying - of course your life may be any danger, but don't worry, while you are fighting the cancer you can just put your house on the market, find another property in the UK (which of course will a lot worse than the one you left because you were silly enough to invest in France and now have considerably less money, but never mind) pray you can sell your French house and move back to the Uk and prove residency there in time to get 'free' life saving treatment.....Gee Scooby - could you be a little short of basic humanity ? These are not just a set of rules and regulation, real human beings, just like you, with families, hopes and dreams, are being affected.Oh - and the comment about the the UK government taking your home is just a red herring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybananasbrother Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 It strikes me RH that, put that way, there might be a case for the European Court of Human Rights to investigate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groslard Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 [quote user="Russethouse"][you can just put your house on the market, find another property in the UK (which of course will a lot worse than the one you left because you were silly enough to invest in France and now have considerably less money, but never mind) pray you can sell your French house and move back to the Uk and prove residency there [/quote]The situation you describe is terrible, and I believe the French authorities have already said that in such a case the person concerned would be able to remain in the CMU. I am sure that the customary generosity of the French would prevail.My problem with this lies with the assumptions behind it. You are continually assuming things about property ownership which are irrelevant to Health care: nobody has to sell or buy a house, or be a property owner. Renting is a normal way of living in France, and increasingly among the young generation in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chassaing Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 [quote user="Russethouse"][quote user="Scooby"][quote user="Russethouse"]Perhaps you would not be so keen to promote the idea that you can just sell up a couple of years after moving if it was you involved. Have you any idea of the financial ramifications? [/quote]Exactly RH!! That sentence sums it up - its not that people can't get health care, they just don't want to part with any money for the privilege. If you were back in the UK and needed long term residential care they'd take your house off you anyway!!![/quote]I think you should go to the FHI web site and read it.They are perfectly happy to pay for health care - the fact is that people may have sold up and moved to France (not a cheap undertaking, even just removal costs, agency fees etc) they buy a house to improve and invest in that house, using local artisans, shopping locally, paying all their taxes and charges etc, then after a year one of them discovers cancer and treatment is started - several months after an operation chemo is ongoing and their oncologist has a programme of treatment planned. Then without any notice the French government start saying that in a couple of months time we are going to stop paying - of course your life may be any danger, but don't worry, while you are fighting the cancer you can just put your house on the market, find another property in the UK (which of course will a lot worse than the one you left because you were silly enough to invest in France and now have considerably less money, but never mind) pray you can sell your French house and move back to the Uk and prove residency there in time to get 'free' life saving treatment.....Gee Scooby - could you be a little short of basic humanity ? These are not just a set of rules and regulation, real human beings, just like you, with families, hopes and dreams, are being affected.Oh - and the comment about the the UK government taking your home is just a red herring.[/quote]Hi RH, succinctly put. I agree. Perhaps a FG change of heart would be welcomed. But atleast the 'go home' stance generally in France may be subsiding:http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?sid=a8UWPwD5zB.U&pid=20601109 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Are you following M. Graham's tragic story on Jim Murphy's blog? He should be admitted into the CMU under the new rules, as a victim of an "accident de vie" but his local CPAM refuses to acknowledge that they exist.http://blogs.fco.gov.uk/blogs/jim_murphy/archive/2008/01/11/15734.aspxHe is going back to the UK tomorrow in the hopes that he will get his urgent gall bladder operation courtesy of the NHS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 I feel really strongly about this - its just inhumane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boiling a frog Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 While I have every sympathy for poor M Graham,no one has been denied treatment in France.He could have his operation done in France,he would have to pay for it, but he is not being denied health care,just health care which will not cost any money(provided one has adequate top up assurance). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chassaing Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 [quote user="cooperlola"]Are you following M. Graham's tragic story on Jim Murphy's blog? He should be admitted into the CMU under the new rules, as a victim of an "accident de vie" but his local CPAM refuses to acknowledge that they exist.http://blogs.fco.gov.uk/blogs/jim_murphy/archive/2008/01/11/15734.aspxHe is going back to the UK tomorrow in the hopes that he will get his urgent gall bladder operation courtesy of the NHS.[/quote]Hi Coops, thank you for raising our awareness on M. Graham's journey, everyone who has an ounce of empathy in them will be saddened, or angry for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 If anybody knows who he is, would they please ask him to get in touch with me urgently.[email protected]Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Yes BaF he could have paid for the operation but what if there's complications etc etc or just a delay in being discharged.The possibilities are endless and thats the worry.I for one are thankful that I'm not in M Grahams positionIs it right to have to gamble with your savings in such a wayBest wishes M Graham, A speedy recover and a safe return to your home..............Joshua[:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJSLIV Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 It will; be interesting to see how he fares. Strictly speaking he has no entitlement to free treatment in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybananasbrother Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Interesting this. I think it is reasonable to say that he is entitled to health cover in the country of residence, regardless. In other words, the country of residence has a responsibility. If they are denying that responsibility, interesting ball game.[6]I hope he comes out all right. If in doubt, sue the British health system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 [quote user="BJSLIV"]It will; be interesting to see how he fares. Strictly speaking he has no entitlement to free treatment in the UK.[/quote]I guess he's just hoping... There is more and more evidence to suggest that the NHS is asking for proof of UK residence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 I guess even if he wanted to, paying for the op in France would just highlight the fact that he doesn't have cover and is now an illegal immigrant ?I notice someone on the blog has suggested AME..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boiling a frog Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 I prefer the words irregular resident,and I have not seen any suggestion anywhere that people are going to be herded onto boats and sent back across the channel.Mind you it would solve peoples problem if they were, access to UK state aid as homeless refugees,free health care,free housing,all sorts of benefits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 [quote user="Russethouse"]I guess even if he wanted to, paying for the op in France would just highlight the fact that he doesn't have cover and is now an illegal immigrant ?I notice someone on the blog has suggested AME.....[/quote]Earlier on in the blog he says he tried this but was turned down.BaF, I have asked the Health Minister how she proposes to deport the illegal aliens now... no response thus far.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chassaing Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 [quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="Russethouse"]I guess even if he wanted to, paying for the op in France would just highlight the fact that he doesn't have cover and is now an illegal immigrant ?I notice someone on the blog has suggested AME.....[/quote]Earlier on in the blog he says he tried this but was turned down.BaF, I have asked the Health Minister how she proposes to deport the illegal aliens now... no response thus far....[/quote]Hi Cooperlola, my guess is that you won't get an answer to 'that'question. But 'nice try' all the same.If we can believe the media, it looks like a 'Quota rule' (see linksbelow). But as we are now labeled 'Immigrants' for 5 years, and ifwithout health cover we break 'the directive', then surely at best the term'not legal Immigrant' would apply and worst 'Illegal Immigrant'. We can only hope the CPAMs get their act together - soon!(14 months to E121 and counting!)http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/01/17/europe/EU-GEN-France-Immigration.phphttp://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=World_News&subsection=United+Kingdom+%26+Europe&month=January2008&file=World_News200801082438.xml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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