France backs down on access to CMU for inactifs

[NormanH]

But couldn't your beekeeping be registered as an AE business?

It doesn't actually have to make any money to qualify you for cover...

My point is that  as long as you can do the paperwork you can find a way.

Sorry to hear about problems your husband has encountered.

[Sprogster]

Daft Doctor, if you have a very healthy income, you might have a better chance of getting into CMU earlier. As I have a suspicion wealthier early retirees are looked at more favourably. Mind you, the contribution would be a lot higher than 2.5k if you income is that healthy!

If you do take out private medical insurance it is worth looking at companies like BUPA International who will throw in UK cover for the same premium. Good as the French health system maybe, having private access to the top London hospitals would be preferable to many of the regional hospitals in France. I am sure you are aware that despite the failings of the NHS, in many areas the top London teaching hospitals lead the world on treatment and clinical research for many conditions.

[Daft Doctor]

Hi Sprogster, thanks for that info re BUPA, will certainly bear this in mind if insurance is needed. My wife has a thriving ebay business which we think is in a reasonable way transferrable to France so she will register for AE status. That should be problem solved healthcare wise, but in any case I will have an S1 form until Jan 2014. By then all the mist and uncertainty regarding the recent circular and how it is implemented will have hopefully cleared. If access to CMU is needed then (say if my wife is no longer an AE) then good and I will happily pay what I am asked. If on the other hand we need private insurance then so be it. Its best to budget for the worst case scenario if possible then anything less will be a pleasant surprise. You never know, if my incredibly funny trilogy of novels about being a medical student, junior Dr and GP respectively have been planned, written, published and selling like hot cakes (ha! ha!) I might be able to afford the world, not just CMU (one can always dream..........)

[Keni]

Hi Norman, at present we understand beekeeping, per se, is regarded as agricultural, so not an AE activity, there is change afoot we understand, but with just 2 hives, not enough honey to sell.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="NormanH"]You assume that this is about people who are already settled (sell up - with all the losses of both home, friendship and money that that would have involved)  which in fact is covered by a clause about 'accidents de la vie'
What I have objected to is people who are perfectly fit coming to France and then expecting to slot into a different healthcare system on UK terms, making no concessions to the system as it exists here ..a sort of cultural imperialism.

I see no reason not  to  either pay up, work, or start a business, as those of us pre- 2000 had to do. Those who do that while they are fit have no worries about 'the smallest long-term uninsurable condition'

.
Even I with my dubious health could still work as an AE enough to qualify.
Those who don't do that have made a choice they are entitled to make, but I believe they should accept the consequences.
[/quote]The "accident de vie" clauses were added as a direct result of our whingeing  campaign - which we started in order to protect those who were settled from having to go home.  They also apply only to those who had no idea they had a condition when they moved - not to anybody who was already here and ill. We whinged because if we couldn't get full PHI then we would have been thrown out under the initial rules which we whinged about to the Europe minister and the Health minister.  Finally they realised how discriminatory they were, at which point we thanked them all profusely, ceased whingeing and shut up.  It would have been illegal to live here without full PHI unless one took a job from a French person.  It was never, ever, a question of money, but a whingeing campaign against discrimination on the grounds of something people had no control over - their health.

I admit that things are different now - for those who want to move here they can at the very least find some sort of job, or plan a business before they move if PHI is unavailable to them.  They have a Hobson's version of a choice at least -they can stay in the UK against their wishes whereas a fit person can come.  For those already here and with any (even minor) condition which would have prevented them from getting insurance to the, frankly ludicrous, specification which is asked for to make living here legal then unless they could find a job, they had to go back to the UK and leave their homes behind.  Sorry, but I just can't accept that this is fair in any civilised society.  Thankfully, those in charge here finally got the point and backed down.

Whereas even this right-wing government managed to figure this one out - there are still some who see the campaign as either whingeing by a bunch of undeserving sick people, or an argument about costs and money which it never, ever was.

Yes, work is an option for those who want to come, but why then are fit people allowed not to work and just live on their pensions, but sick ones aren't?  What's your version of discrimination, because that is mine?

[EmilyA]

Well said Coops.

What happened to us?

1. Moved here in 2005.

2. E106 was just about to run out when the rules changed 2007.

3. No possibility of PHI as OH has hypertension.

4. Started business when E106 ran out.

5. Three weeks later (as a result of excellent FHI whingeing campaign) rules were changed again to allow existing and resident E106 holders into CMU.

6. Too late for us as business already started.

7. Succesful business but endless struggle with RSI "administration".

8. Business closed - total contributions high, but less than we would willingly have paid CMU.

Am I still cross - yes.

[NormanH]

The "accident de vie" clauses were

added as a direct result of our whingeing  campaign - which

we started in order to protect those who were settled from having to

go home. 

Nobody was asked to go home at any stage. This was

just alarmist talk.

I came here in 1995, and had to get PHI until I

could earn the right to cover.  Those who came over after

the abolition of the Carte de Séjour (something I greatly regret

since it weeded people out at the start) seem to feel they have an

automatic right to UK NHS style 'free at the point of delivery'

cover, as I said above cultural imperialism ..

We whinged because if we couldn't get full PHI

then we would have been thrown out under the initial rules which we

whinged about to the Europe minister and the Health minister.

No they would not have been thrown out. My

neighbours who have absolutely no health cover have been treated

frequently under the AME scheme, but nobody has thown  them

out..many 'wing it' on the old E111...I know of no cases of people been sent back to the UK. Do you?

  Finally they realised how discriminatory

they were, at which point we thanked them all profusely and shut up. 

It would have been illegal to live here without full PHI unless

one took a job from a French person.  It was never, ever, a

question of money, but a campaign against discrimination on the

grounds of something people had no control over - their health.

It is of course about costs and money, since there

are many sick British  people who see that the French system is

perhaps more generous than the NHS because French people have for

many years stumped up more of the money they earn to pay  for

it. These Brits think 'I'd like a part of that', and after 

having been happy to pay less over the years in to the UK coffers

than they would have done if they had been in France they suddenly

discover 'the French Dream'  which of course includes the

benefits of French investment in health.  In other words

opportunism and greed...

The Sécu here practises far less budgetary control than  the NHS, which suits Brits with expensive conditions

I admit that things are different now - for

those who want to move here they can at the very least find some sort

of job, or plan a business before they move if PHI is unavailable to

them.  They have a Hobson's version of a choice at least -they

can stay in the UK against their wishes whereas a fit person can

come.

Is this any different from the choice facing any

one who wishes to emigrate to any country?  How would sick

people handle retiring to Florida?

 For those already here and with any (even

minor) condition which would have prevented them from getting

insurance to the, frankly ludicrous, specification which is asked for

to make living here legal then unless they could find a job, they had

to go back to the UK and leave their homes behind.  Sorry, but I

just can't accept that this is far in any civilised society. 

Thankfully, those in charge here finally got the point and backed

down.

Only those who hadn't previously bothered to earn

the right to cover might have been affected, though as I have

already said nobody was. People who are content to sit on their

backsides at 45 and do nothing to assure their right to health care

are not the most deserving of my sympathy.

Whereas even this right-wing government managed

to figure this one out - there are still some who see the campaign as

either whingeing by a bunch of undeserving sick people, or an

argument about costs and money which it never, ever was.

My objections are nothing to do with people being

deserving or sick. They are to do with people 'running to teacher'

(Europe) to force the county they chose to settle in to be like the

one they chose to leave.

As I said above it is ALL about money. British

prodigal sons who have spent their money on consumer goods and made a

packet on the housing market decide to come to France and make use of

a system they haven't contributed to the building up of ...then they

winge that it is unfair that things aren't like back home.

Yes, work is an option for those who want to

come, but why then are fit people allowed not to work and

just live on their pensions, but sick ones aren't? 

What's your version of discrimination, because that is mine?

Anybody can come and live on their pension in

France, sick or fit.

There is no discrimination, since both have their

care paid for by the UK, except a tiny minority.

Remember all this doesn't affect the vast majority of British immigrants, just a tiny few idle  'early retired' .  Those who work  a normal working life, either in one country or across the two have no worries.

[Chancer]

Very well put Norman, no-one has been expulsed from the country nor would they ever have been, I am talking about UK citizens not Roms!

Lets not forget that there are huge numbers of immigrant sans papiers or people in situation irreguliere who came here purely to work (not to exploit a system) and who are paying full cotisations yet get no healthcare or other benefits in return for their labour and deductions, I am talking about all those employed on chantiers in Paris and the other big cities by the interim agencies, they even went on strike to bring attention to the injustice of their situation.

[Russethouse]

 Well, I may be wrong but  I think we did have one lady here who was required to return to the UK, told she couldn't stay, as I remember. Unfortunatley I don't remember her name.

[pachapapa]

Brits are often obese, exacerbated by unhealthy life styles, result high health costs to the state.

French consume enormous quantities of medicaments, result high health costs to state.

Seems attractive to opt out of inflated health security charges and pay as you go, like the americans do.

[Russethouse]

 Well thanks PCP, I wouldn't want the American system and I doubt you would either

A few weks ago I had an American tell me that there was nothing in their constitution hat said you had to be treated if you got ill...nice ...

Apart from that my GP told me that her sister who lives in the US and has breast cancer cannot get the drugs she needs as her insurance wont cover them (and is thinking of coming 'home' as she has dual nationality)

A very good friend was literally waiting for her pre med with her surgeon and her insurance company argueing about what surgery he should do and at what cost (and they had very good insurance)

Or numerous people with diabetes, even children, where testing strips and needles are rationed......

Sorry, not a system that has any great attraction for me.

[Salty Sam]

Fully concur with you RH, and I doubt very much if some people have a grasp on the true situation of health care charges in the USA.

[quote]Seems attractive to opt out of inflated health security charges and pay as you go, like the americans do.[/quote]

"Like the Americans do"! That's a laugh. As RH has highlighted, you get cover according to how much you contribute to the insurance sharks - who are in the business of making a profit.

Estimated around 17% of the population are not insured, with over 60% of all bankruptcies cited as being due to medical debt and high medical expense costs. Not forgetting, this is also the country with the highest rate of adult obesity!