health care

[bill k]

just to let you all know out there i have today received my letter to say i have no health cover from march 2008.

i have been resident in france since june 2000 so obviously the 5 year rule does not apply.

has anybody else had a letter?

 

 

[Cat]

That's interesting Bill.  Is there anything in the letter that allows you to contest the decision? 

When you say that you have been resident in France since 2000, and that you will still be excluded from healthcare (despite the apparent 5 year rule) do you have French tax returns going back to 2000 to prove residency?

[tj]

[quote user="bill k"]

just to let you all know out there i have today received my letter to say i have no health cover from march 2008.

[/quote]

Am curious about one thing, since the french decided all those of pre state retirement age can no longer receive health cover unless they are working and paying cotisations, does that mean the ball is now in the UK court so to speak?

I mean does not the British system have an obligation to pay for you?

And I would suggest the UK government adopt the same attitude, although I'm sure they wont since everything now must be "PC".

 Just confirms the opinion that all this political correctness, is infact as many agree, the dissassembly of our nation and heritage, in some mistaken beleif that a more liberal and multicultural compost heap is preferable, but for whom I wonder? certainly not the rightful heirs to their country. 

 

[cooperlola]

The fact that the National Health Service is available free to all UK residents, dates back to the principals of its foundation.  Nothing modern or "PC" about it.

However, I agree we need to lobby the British government about this, as well as the EU.  Leave no stone unturned.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="bill k"]

just to let you all know out there i have today received my letter to say i have no health cover from march 2008.

i have been resident in france since june 2000 so obviously the 5 year rule does not apply.

has anybody else had a letter?

[/quote]Bill, the 5 year rule is EU legislation.  I'll try to find the relevant stuff for you shortly but it's been a busy day!  Meanwhile, begin the process of applying for a titre de sejour - details HERE - as this should prove the key for remaining in the CMU.

Please e-mail our website

[email protected]

if you have the time, and we'll keep you in touch when we have more movement on this.  Thanks.

[Russethouse]

tj - FWIW I think the Uk will be reluctant to increase its responsibility (although I would love to be wrong) I know (or think) that under the reciprocal agreement the Uk gives France a set allowance for each resident with an E form. The situation in the UK is that some treatments are being discontinued on the grounds of cost, for example some osteoporosis drugs and some cancer drugs are no longer available on the NHS. I suspect they are available in France which may lead to accusations that those living in France and in some cases no longer contributing to the UK system have access to more/better treatment than those who are still contributing in the UK.

Rightly or wrongly I can't see it being politically expedient to change the length of time an E106 lasts. Sorry.

Perhaps I'm wrong........

[Deimos]

[quote user="Puzzled"]

The Directive states at Article 16

Union citizens who have resided legally for a

continuous period of five years in the host Member State shall have

the right of permanent residence there. This right shall not

be subject to the conditions provided for in Chapter III.

 

[/quote]

The thing that needs clarification

on this is how the right of Permanent Residence gives you the right

to join the CMU. I'm sure I saw somewhere that once a Permanent

Resident you have the same rights in all respects as a French citizen

- but a) this needs to be found in an EU document that people can

present to CPAM when claiming this right and b) some documentation

(French) stating that French citizens in the same circumstances (i.e.

inactif) have the right to join the CMU.

I think that official EU documents with reference

numbers (and in French) would be needed to be acceptable to any

French body.  Letters (in English) from somebody explaining what they think probably wont count for much.

Also, what are the British Embassy doing through

all this. I sort of expected they would stay "on-top" of

something like this. After all, it is the rights of British citizens

in France at issue. However, they seem to just accept what the

French tell them, nothing to back it up and when it turns out the

French have "changed their minds" (predictable ?) they just

go along with the next story. They cost enough so I would expect

them to actually be doing something and be aware of things before

they dribble out only to the various forums. If they cannot do

simple stuff like that then what are they good for ?  I would have expected them to be able to sort out this 5 year rule and its implications for inactifs and the CMU in a few minutes (literally).  Maybe time for them to "pull their fingers out a bit".

Ian

[cooperlola]

Ain't that the truth, Ian.

On the subject of the 5 year rule:

Can you help us ?

 

Are you

 

·                     A British National resident in France ?

·                     Have you officially lived in France in excess of 5 years ?

·                     Are you classes as an 'inactif '?

·                     Have you received a letter stating that you and / or your family will no longer be entitled to health care via the CMU after March 2008 ?

 

 

If ALL of the above applies to you, could you please scan the letter (omitting any personal information) and email it us as an attachment ?

 

 

Once we know the exact reasons why your cover has been withdrawn, we can offer some guidance as to your next steps.

[email protected]

 

[Will]

The British health system is based solely on residence. If you cease to be a resident, you give up rights to free health treatment, though as long as you qualify for an E form you can get healthcare in another European state. Entitlement to the E121, covering those of state retirement age (plus some on invalidity benefits), is fairly clear-cut, but Britain is one of the few states that gives E106 forms to non-active people, so I am afraid the two years E106 cover is a bit of a bonus that you would not get if you were, for instance, German or Irish, and it is unlikely you could get this extended.

The French system is based on assurance rather than residence. So even though you may have lived in France for over five years, which under EU guidelines qualifies you as a resident, you may still need to take out your own health assurance. However, this is one of the points that has still to be clarified by France or the EU.

Sorry if you do not like my answer, but that is how the law appears to stand at present.

[Sunday Driver]

In order to retain your CMU cover if you have five years residency, or to re-affilate once you've got the requisite 'time in', you need to provide evidence to your CPAM that you qualify to do so.

The CPAMs operate under their own internal rules which are derived from French national legislation - and it's this legislation which sets out the procedure you need to follow:

According to the official assurance maladie website (ameli.fr) persons in stable residence in France may affilliate to CMU de base except for those in certain situations, one of which is foreign nationals being in possession of a titre de sejour 'retraite'. This is in line with the new French regulations on 'inactifs' having to provide their own private insurance cover.

However, according to the official service-public website (sejour en France des citoyenns européen 'non-actif), once you have been resident in France for at least five years, you acquire a permanent right of residency with no further need to provide resource justification.  You may then apply for a titre de sejour 'sejour permanent - toutes activités professionelles' which is valid for twenty years. 

Once you have obtained this new TdS, you can provide it to your CPAM as proof of your new residency status which no longer falls within the above category for exclusion from affiliation to CMU.

 

[cooperlola]

SD, this is precisely the way I read it.  (Why I suggested to the o/p that he go down the t de s route).  Succinct as per, SD.[:)]

(Have you learnt how to knit yet?)

[Aube]

I also received a letter today saying that I am covered until  March 2008.  I am very surprised, as I have been living in France since 1997.  I do have a titre de sejour which shows what date I arrived in France, and sent a copy to CPAM in Vienne, but unfortunately they didn't seem to take any notice of the 5 years residence.

[Tony F Dordogne]

I've been wondering whether the French may be reading the 5 year residency rule in the same way that they do for getting a French passport.  I know what the general interpretation of the 5 years rule is, you live here for 5 years and you therefore qualify for CMU but what if the French see it a different way, after all, the British government see a lot of EU law in a differemnt way to other countries and the 'red lines' make sure they can continue to do so - does France have a 'red line' on this?

It will be interesting to see whether people who have obtained citizenship - who by definition must have been here for 5 years - get treated any different to those who have 'only' lived here for 5 years without taking citizenship.

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="Aube"]I also received a letter today saying that I am covered until  March 2008.  I am very surprised, as I have been living in France since 1997.  I do have a titre de sejour which shows what date I arrived in France, and sent a copy to CPAM in Vienne, but unfortunately they didn't seem to take any notice of the 5 years residence.
[/quote]

The key question is what does your TdS say?  If it says 'retraite' or 'non-active' then under their new procedures, your CPAM are correct to reject it and you'll need to apply for a different one.

You now have the opportunity to be a guinea pig for the cause......[;-)]

 

 

[cooperlola]

The rub is that the residency rules, although outlined on the government's site, are not yet finalised, nor the documentation agreed.

"L'obligation d'enregistrement en mairie des citoyens de l'Union européenne, d'un autre Etat partie à l'accord sur l'Espace économique européen et suisses s'applique aux seules personnes entrées en France après l'entrée en vigueur d'un arrêté qui doit fixer le modèle de l'attestation d'enregistrement délivrée.

Cet arrêté, conjoint des ministres de l'intérieur et des affaires sociales, n'a pas encore été publié.

Nos fiches l'intégreront dès sa parution. "

My italics.  This could explain some of the problems?

And yes, "the cause" needs guinea pigs![;-)]

[Sunday Driver]

That particular registration rule is the one which applies to new immigrants.  The situation for existing residents hasn't changed.

 

[Graham & Brenda]

SD thanks for explaining the titre rules. Mine says  "Pensionne DIR. No 90.365 DU 28 JUIN 1990"

I presume that this is the same as Retraite. Although I haven't got 5 years yet  it would help to know.

 

Thanks,

 

[cooperlola]

duplicate post deleted

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

That particular registration rule is the one which applies to new immigrants.  The situation for existing residents hasn't changed.

 

[/quote]Sadly, I only have sight of the new document re residency, not the old one.  So the  t de s permanent already exists then, in the form described on the  F. Gov website then, S/D?

[makfai]

[quote user="Deimos"]

[quote user="Puzzled"]

The Directive states at Article 16

Union citizens who have resided legally for a continuous period of five years in the host Member State shall have the right of permanent residence there.

This right shall not be subject to the conditions provided for in Chapter III.

 

[/quote]

The thing that needs clarification on this is how the right of Permanent Residence gives you the right to join the CMU. I'm sure I saw somewhere that once a Permanent Resident you have the same rights in all respects as a French citizen - but a) this needs to be found in an EU document that people can present to CPAM when claiming this right and b) some documentation (French) stating that French citizens in the same circumstances (i.e. inactif) have the right to join the CMU.

I think that official EU documents with reference numbers (and in French) would be needed to be acceptable to any French body. Letters (in English) from somebody explaining what they think probably wont count for much.

Also, what are the British Embassy doing through all this. I sort of expected they would stay "on-top" of something like this. After all, it is the rights of British citizens in France at issue. However, they seem to just accept what the French tell them, nothing to back it up and when it turns out the French have "changed their minds" (predictable ?) they just go along with the next story. They cost enough so I would expect them to actually be doing something and be aware of things before they dribble out only to the various forums. If they cannot do simple stuff like that then what are they good for ?  I would have expected them to be able to sort out this 5 year rule and its implications for inactifs and the CMU in a few minutes (literally). Maybe time for them to "pull their fingers out a bit".

Ian

[/quote]

 

I have sent you the French versions of the Directive; the law and the decree.

[makfai]

[quote user="bill k"]

just to let you all know out there i have today received my letter to say i have no health cover from march 2008.

i have been resident in france since june 2000 so obviously the 5 year rule does not apply.

has anybody else had a letter?

[/quote]

 

For anyone in this position please look at this site:

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/

Droit au séjour permanent

Règle 

Sauf si sa présence constitue une menace pour l'ordre public, le citoyen européen ou assimilé qui a résidé de façon légale et ininterrompue en France pendant les cinq années précédentes acquiert un droit au séjour permanent sur l'ensemble du territoire français. 

A l'issue de cette période, il n'a plus besoin de justifier les conditions de son séjour (ressources par exemple). 

Continuité du séjour 

La continuité du séjour sur les cinq ans peut être prouvée par tout moyen. 

Ne sont pas prises en compte les absences temporaires ne dépassant pas six mois par an, les absences pour l'accomplissement des obligations militaires ou une absence de douze mois consécutifs maximum pour une raison importante telle qu'une maladie grave, des études ou un détachement professionnel à l'étranger par exemple. 

La continuité du séjour est interrompue par l'exécution de toute mesure d'éloignement. 

Perte du droit au séjour permanent 

Une fois acquis, le droit au séjour permanent ne se perd que par une absence de France de plus de deux années consécutives. 

Carte de séjour permanent 

Les citoyens qui ont acquis un droit au séjour permanent en France peuvent demander la délivrance d'une carte de séjour "CE - séjour permanent - toutes activités professionnelles", valable vingt ans. 

Cette carte, dont la possession n'est pas obligatoire, est renouvelable de plein droit. 

Once you have obtained the Carte de séjour permanent then it is back to CPAM

[Boiling a frog]

It is all very well saying print out the legislation and apply for your titre de sejour but one then has to deal with the French bureaucracy.

Realising that a new titre de sejour would perhaps come in handy and with my old one about to expire I trotted off last week  to the mairie armed with print outs of the actual legislation

I was met with a firm but polite NON

I insisted and the secretary telephoned the Prefecture and she was met with a NON from the prefecture.We do not issue titre de sejour,s to EU citizens.

The legislation was produced but it was still a polite NON.

I said that I may be asked by CPAM to prove I had been here more than 5 years that was why I wanted a titre de Sejour.

The reply was that no French Govt dept has the right to demand a titre de sejour from an EU citizen.

And yesterday when being informed that I only had until 31st March next year for cover the CPAM rep was not even interested in my titre de sejour .It was a straight everyone who is not working will need private health assurance it matters not a jot how long one has been in France.    

[Ron Avery]

"I have been resident in France since June 2000 so obviously the 5 year rule does not apply".

Has Bill confirmed anywhere that he has been TAX resident in France for 5 years and whether or not he has a T de S? I know a lot of people who have been here more than five years but have misguidedly, never made a tax declaration as they pay tax in the UK, teachers etc.

 

[Will]

The crucial point, surely, is whether a French national in the same position as yourself (i.e. below state retirement age, not salaried, self-employed or receiving unemployment benefit, living off private means such as savings or non-state pension, etc) will be required to take out private health assurance. If not, then once you have your five years continuous residence you should be able to expect the same. If they will have to have private assurance too, then so will you.

I don't know the answer to that question, and neither, I suspect, do the officials in the CPAM offices (and I am not sure that I would rely on their answers anyway). Maybe somebody can find out?

 

[Boiling a frog]

 I have been here since March 2002,my Titre de sejour says so,and I have made a tax return since 2003,I am registered to vote in the municipal elections, but CPAM tell me I lose my health care rights after March 2008.

I reiterate   According to CPAM Charente there is no such thing as a five vear rule in relation to receiving health care via CMU