Hypothetical question

[AnOther]

ALD consists of a long list of specific conditions and diseases and to qualify for 100% for whichever of those that a patient happened to be suffering from it (or they if more than one) must be applied for through ones French doctor, and granted. Clearly this cannot happen with someone who is not afilliated to the Franch system.

As unfair as it might seem superficially the same logic of qualifying for continued care after you have left the UK on the basis that you have paid in £xxxx over xx years would dictate that you would not be entitled to anything in your chosen country of residence because you have paid in nothing there. It's a difficult problem to which I think the residency solution, backed up with the various E forms for the interim, is probably the only practical and workable one.

Remember that even if you were to spend the next 20 years outside the UK and not pay another penny into the coffers the instant you return with the intention of becoming resident again you are fully covered as if you had never left.

[cooperlola]

I have every sympathy for people who want to take early retirement and come over here (let's face it, I did it) and understand the frustration of the new regulations which make health care either incredibly expensive (at least for two or three years) or impossible (if you have a pre-existing condition which makes you uninsurable).   However, I have had sight of a document which is now issued to UK hospitals which aims to prevent those who are not domiciled in Britain, from using the system when they shouldn't.  I have no doubt that most of these rules are more likely to be enforced if you're not British, (a sad fact of life) but they do apply to you equally if you are no longer living there.  Thus, ontheway, I too think it's pretty irresponsible of UK medical practitioners to advise this practice to their expatriate patients.

Of course if you are genuinely just "giving it a go" for a few months, then it's a different matter and you may well just be taking an extended holiday to see how you like the place - I reckon this is quite different from moving lock, stock and barrel, and pretending that you haven't done so.

Whether you are prepared to take  the risk is entirely up to you and your conscience but Will's post does indicate the more important aspect of all this - amongst which are the fact you cannot have top up insurance without French health cover, and you cannot get 100% cover for ALDs.  Thus there are practical reasons for this being a no-no, as well as moral ones.  And if you should have a long term illness or a bad accident which leaves you needing long term treatment over months or even years, will you really want to go back to the UK if you don't have a home there any more?  Only the individual involved can answer that.

[Slippery Sam]

Whilst not particularly of relevance to this bb the UK has stopped the reciprocal healthcare agreement with the Channel Islands and from next April, the Isle of Man which have been in place since the war. No problem if you are fit and well but should you have a pre-existing condition, you are at the mercy of faceless bureaucrats in an insurance company and mercy is something they don't have.This is the same situation of expats when the E forms expire. If you have something as (relatively) common as Type2 diabetes, you may not be able to move to France until retirement age should you not want to work. No wonder *some* people are looking for way around this.

[Patf]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

 

Of course if you are genuinely just "giving it a go" for a few months, then it's a different matter and you may well just be taking an extended holiday to see how you like the place - I reckon this is quite different from moving lock, stock and barrel, and pretending that you haven't done so.

 

[/quote]

This is in fact what happened to us when we first came here, and we still had our house in the UK.( which we still have but it's now let.)

At the time I was on a particular medication and I used to write to the doc. and ask for a repeat prescription, which the chemist picked up and posted to me in pre-stamped packets. They knew we were in France, obviously.

We had no idea of defrauding the system, just not sure of the future. We needed to go to the french doctor occasionally and just paid for everything, never claiming back.

Eventually I realised I could get an E121 and we "went legit."

[AnOther]

[quote user="cooperlola"]...those who are not domiciled in Britain...[/quote]

Only a word I know Coops but for accuracy domicile is not the same thing as residency and can have a rather fluid definition so the statement could be open to misunderstanding [;-)]

[Slippery Sam]

Correct Ernie but its only the UK taxman that seems to want to maintain a fluid definition. Personally I think it's much simpler. Domicile is where you were born and where your roots are (domicile of origin) rather than where you live. However you can change this to your domicile of choice as I did 20+ years ago but if you are only pretending to change to bamboozle whoever, there are lots of 'gotchas' to trip you up. The taxman knows them all. I would think that unless certain steps are taken, most people on here and living full time in France are UK domiciled but France resident (assuming of course they are from the UK originally).

[AnOther]

Which is my point SS.

I don't know if domicile was Coops choice of word or what was actually written in the document she refers to but in the context of health cover and this discussion residence is the determining factor not domicile. My concern was that some reading that may be persuaded to think differently and I think that there are already enough slips, trips, and falls along the proper way without unintentionally or accidentally introducing another blind alley.

[Slippery Sam]

Quote "can you really be living full time in France and UK domiciled"   I'm no tax expert but the answer is definitely yes. As I understand it you retain your domicile of origin forever until various definite steps are taken to change it to your domicile of choice.Moving to France permanently isn't enough by a long chalk. Even having taken these steps, it might be argued by some HMRC shyster that you haven't actually changed it.

 I'd rather not go into any more detail but anyone who wants to change their domicile of origin needs to get advice from an expert rather than me who has no qualifications other than having read a book and done it. I believe one of the main implications of not shedding UK domicile is UK Inheritance Tax on your worldwide assets.

Its a long way from dodging health charges but health care, tax, residency and domicile are all linked.

[Poppy]

Can you really be living full time in France and UK domiciled. Definitely yes now that private health insurance is legal again in France.

[Scooby]

Putting a spanner in the works.  If the individual has been a highly paid (and higher rate tax payer) in the UK until their 'move' why is the OP suggestion so terrible in the context of those idle barstewards (most of whom have an extremely unhealthy lifestyle) who have spent their lives on benefits and have paid diddly squat into the UK system......

[Scooby]

[quote user="Slippery Sam"]Quote "can you really be living full time in France and UK domiciled"   I'm no tax expert but the answer if definitely yes. As I understand it you retain your domicile of origin forever until various definite steps are taken to change it to your domicile of choice.

[/quote]

As a tax expert - yes you can.

[Russethouse]

[quote user="Scooby"]Putting a spanner in the works.  If the individual has been a highly paid (and higher rate tax payer) in the UK until their 'move' why is the OP suggestion so terrible in the context of those idle barstewards (most of whom have an extremely unhealthy lifestyle) who have spent their lives on benefits and have paid diddly squat into the UK system......
[/quote]

If that was the case why would they be complaining about paying into the French system ?

The reality is if you can't afford the health care you can't afford to live in France!

[Gardian]

Quite, RH.

I don't think that anybody is bucking against the issue of someone having paid taxes etc for years, and then wanting to move abroad and being unable to be supported by the Health System to which he / she has subscribed to for years.

However ............. it ain't like that. The reality is that most emigrants to France, Spain etc are (shall we say) of more mature years. That means higher health bills and what I understand to be flat rate payments (country to country) for qualifying people, means that the above countries will suffer disproportionately. The numbers that I've heard mentioned (c. €4k pppa) wouldn't cover the cost of our medication.

So, France has tightened the net.  Tough, but understandable.

Returning to the OP's original post, he's either been winding the likes of me up, or being extremely naive. As has been pointed out, the likelihood of some kind of serious medical problem arising for one or both of the partners in the 55 - 65 age frame is high. Whatever the enhanced benefits of an EHIC card, I wouldn't like to have to try to operate with one if such a problem arose and this was (to all intents and purposes) my home.     

[andyh4]

[quote user="Scooby"]Putting a spanner in the works.  If the individual has been a highly paid (and higher rate tax payer) in the UK until their 'move' why is the OP suggestion so terrible in the context of those idle barstewards (most of whom have an extremely unhealthy lifestyle) who have spent their lives on benefits and have paid diddly squat into the UK system......
[/quote]

 

Because Scooby, the legal system is not a pick-n-mix selection where you take the bits you like and reject the rest.

 

Mores the pity

 

And despite the fact that a lot of posters seem to think that's how it should be.

[andypandy]

Andyh4

" Because Scooby, the legal system is not a pick-n-mix selection where you take the bits you like and reject the rest."

But for a lot of people its just that. Wherever you draw the line, whether you're a scrote on the dole or a cabinet minister or md of a bank. Everybody picks and chooses. It's just a matter of which bits to pick.

Gardian

I do have a reputation for winding people up, sorry.

 

[Russethouse]

But for a lot of people its just that. Wherever you draw the line, whether you're a scrote on the dole or a cabinet minister or md of a bank. Everybody picks and chooses. It's just a matter of which bits to pick.

Some of us choose to just have what we are legally and morally entitled to and to cut our coat according to the cost.

Are you aware that with an EHIC

'Your EHIC will allow you access to the same state-provided healthcare as a resident of the country you are visiting'

In France that is not 100% of the charges (unless you have an ALD) in most cases, making up the difference could be a lot more expensive than paying the premium

 

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

In France that is not 100% of the charges (unless you have an ALD)

[/quote]

Or, as we discovered recently, you are classified as incapacitated. The 100% reimbursement is only for the ALD.

[cooperlola]

Sorry, Ernie and co, if I confused.  I thought the intended meaning of what I wrote was perfectly clear.  I am not a lawyer and although I know that various legal systems and governments have their own definitions of what the world domicile means, mine is the literary one as per the OED : "the country that a person treats as his or her home, or lives in and has a substantial connection with."  I wasn't trying for a legal defition, I admit.

EDIT : From a personal point of view, I just cannot see that the UK is, or can ever be considered to be, in any way my "domicile" - I've left it, all that I have is here.  Just because I was born there I can't believe anybody would think of it as my domicile except maybe some clever lawyer, politician, or pedantic forum member.....[;-)]

[AnOther]

Nickel (where is she now ?) took the time to translate the long list of ALD's and post them HERE

It's critical to note that long and comprehensive as the list is simply being classified as incapacitated (is that even a French classification or a legacy from UK ?) is not, of itself, an ALD. You have to be suffering from, and registered with, a specific item or items on the list in which case all treatment related to that, or those, conditions is covered 100%.

[AnOther]

Ouch Coops, I felt that [:'(]

I wasn't intending to be pedantic and some of the ensuing comments I think justified making the distinction.

Unfortunately, push come to shove, OED definitions and personal opinions count for little or nothing beside a governmental interpretation such as might be applied by HMRC/DWP/NHS WHY in determining an entitlement or liability.

[andypandy]

And sometimes the two are not the same, legally and morally I mean.

Looking at a lot of the posts on this website it's struck me how detached a lot of the people who post on here are from the real nasty world. For instance there was a lady on here a few days ago who had toothache and a number of people made a bit of a fuss etc etc, well, while I know that toothache is not pleasant I couldn't help but think how insignificant the post was when right then there would be kids being abused, women raped, innocent people being bombed or gunned down, starving babies giving their last breath etc etc and I thought how lucky this woman was to have toothache. So can you honestly say you have never done anything illegal ? Ever broke the speed limit ? Well have you ?

Course you have so " Some of us choose to just have what we are legally and morally entitled to and to cut our coat according to the cost." doesn't really cut it.

And I bet somebody who posts on this site has hit his wife, or raped a girl, or avoided paying some tax, or fiddled an expense claim or whatever.

 

[cooperlola]

Yes, Andy, nails and heads come to mind.  Some religious bloke said "let he who is without sin" or somesuch.  That's the trouble at the bottom of all this - most of us on here had no trouble with this problem - we got here and we joined the healthcare system - end of story.  We pay for it, but it was pretty straight forward.  This time eighteen months ago, a  significant percentage of members of this forum faced losing their state healthcare and no end of  "fiddles" were suggested as a result.  Everybody had a different moral stance on the problem.  Happily we Jacks are  now alright so of course it's just "tough" for anybody else trying to move here.  They'll just have to carry on working or pay for private healthcare won't they?  How could they possibly consider cheating the system?   Dreadful, what? 

Nevertheless, I don't think it's a bad idea to point out the possible pitfalls.  As the rules have been tightened up and we are no longer welcome here unless the UK is paying for our healthcare or we are rich enough and healthy enough to pay for it ourselves, then the authorities are trying even harder to catch the so called cheats.  No harm in warning those who wish to bypass the new regulations, of the problems they might encounter, is there?  I guessed that was what the other Andy was asking the question for in the first place, n'est-ce pas?

Sorry, Ernie, it was a joke!

[Slippery Sam]

You are bang on Cooper in your first paragraph. I just wonder if some of those looking down from the moral high ground 'snook in' before the rule change?

As for "if you can't afford healthcare you can't afford France", well fine, it's your view. However, if you can't get insurance at any price because of your medical history then what? I lost my career through a health problem and had to deal with my private and company's insurance over a 6 year period. I can tell you they don't give a flying you know what about your situation, only what it's going to cost them and their shareholders. People wishing to come to France now will be at the mercy of these same sort of people. If you are already in , I can appreciate it's not your problem and you may feel justified in pointing the finger but hey, what if it was you? Might you just try and find a way around it? Oh no, I forgot you are above all that.

PS I am not applying this to anyone in particular as I have no knowlege of anyone elses's circumstances, but if the cap fits......

[dragonrouge]

Slippery Sam the cap does not fit

[cooperlola]

SS, (sorry, unfortunate initials you have, Sam!), when FHI was lobbying for the French government to revise their thinking on the new healthcare rules, there was plenty of support for us and our cause.  Once we had won for the majority of those already here, the stuffing went out of the campaign and, try as we might, we could not drum up enough support to carry on fighting for those yet to come.  In particular, our concern was for those who had pre-conditions which - in theory at any rate - won't allow them to live here.  PHI which complies with the regulations is not possible - let alone affordable - thus to my mind, and others like me, the law discriminates against the sick.  But, without support, our voices are just not loud enough to make a difference and thus the campaign just petered out.  A pity, but that's human nature I guess.