Joining the Exodus from France?

[Gastines]

With a number of English friends in the process of selling up and moving back to UK, the logistics and finances of moving household furniture and effects seems to a major issue. We have moved quite a few times,14 different homes in 19 years!! We usually only move the absolute minimum in terms of furniture as we have found that if we take the old dresser or the suite, they end up dictating the style of our new house/home. In many instances it proves a better bet to sell as much as possible resulting in less to pay for trips and removal and buy new to suit the new house. However,when discussing the pro's and con's of moving, it reminded us of the TV play called "THE MOVE "  with Alf Garnet etc in the cast.  The play followed a chain of people moving with all the delays caused by solitors cheques not arriving on time.removal men waiting outside for keys,carpet fitters trying to finish rooms etc. etc. Part of the play featured one chap who spent days running around trying to get cheaper quotes for his move and seeing a large lorry unloading up the road, did a cash deal with the driver to move his goods. He then spent a fewdays taking virtually every moveable and unscrewable item in the house out,from light fittings and bulbs/door handles and digging plants and rose bushes from the garden. Even taking the ashes from the grate to put on the said rose bushes.Unfortunately, when the lorry duly arrived and picked up all his treasured possesions, it the disappeared up the motorway , never to be seen again. The moral being make sure you know who you are dealing with!!

Regards.

[Crevette]

Hi Gastines,

All the best with the move.

Could I ask why you and many of your english friends are selling up and moving back to the UK? Did France not meet your expectations? Was finding work difficult? Was intergration in the culture too hard?

Just curious...

Regards,

-Rob-

 

[Gastines]

Crevette. You must have mis-read my posting. We ain't goin no-where!

Regards.

[Crevette]

Glad to hear it!

What about the others going back to the UK? Any idea why?!

-Rob-

[Gastines]

I have heard all sorts of reasons from lack of social life.no cheddar cheese, etc.etc. I would think the main reason being that French life is different from UK social life. They don't go to the Pub for hours and  watch football over 6 pints.Seriously, I think there are two main reasons.Finances and Family. It is very difficult,if not near impossible to earn a good living wage here,if you are relying on it to support a family. It is very quiet in the winter if you haven't friends and family near. Unfortunately B.F. and other carriers don't make it and easy option to pop over to UK out of season to visit. Unless you can speak very good French it is very hard to have more than a chat with French neighbours   and  French social life revolves around the meal and the debate.!! It took us a few invites to realise that when you invite your neighbours for a meal they will bring the family!! They also don't show any surprise at having to put another chair,or three, around their table if anyone else pops in!! The media view of life has a given people a view that we all sit in our Chateau's,watching the sun go down over our pools and vineyards,while we down umpteen bottles of wine. A some- what coloured view which many people seem to believe. We've been back and forth for nearly 20 years, now on our 4 th house and this time our home. We watched the town we lived in the UK sinking week by week into the drug/prostitution/thieving/drunk mentality that now seems the norm and decide a change was in order. We haven't regretted our move,the only regret at the moment, is that the rest of the family are still having to put up with the c--p that is now called a life in the UK. At the moment we can still pay the bills and enjoy all the good things about being here.

Regards.

[Athene]

We have had our house in France for seven years and we are just about to leave the UK and make France our main home. Everything Gastines says is true especially the bit about the necessity to speak French. The social life as he says is having the long long meal with French neighbours and the lengthy chat about everything under the sun. We also laugh a lot and have a shared sense of humour. In some parts of France going for a meal is very formal affair or so I have heard, I think we are lucky with our neighbours!

I think missing family is a big contibutary factor for people coming back to the UK. I thought today as I was with my daughter and little grandson that I will certainly miss out on being with them and watching him grow up! At the moment in the UK I am an hour and a half's drive away and can be with them twice a month. However, we all have to live our own lives to live and in my opinion it is not good to live in anybody's pocket! Also we are not moving to the other side of the Moon, we can and will come back to the UK for visits! We also hope our family will come and visit us!

As for the cheddar cheese... Well Le Clerc sell Irish cheddar no and that is a big plus! However no English bangers yet! LOL! No, you are right it is English shops I personally will miss and even though I am not a shopaholic, I do occasionally enjoy a spree, I guess I will do that on my trips back! Trouble is you are limited weight-wise as to what you can bring back on a plane! I also enjoy an English boot sale, I will miss those - these are not to be compared to the French brocante where I have yet to see anybody buying anything from!

Living near London the air here is really polluted and in SW France I breath better with clean air! In France I love the calm of the country and get a lot of pleasure from my garden. Yes I do have a garden in the UK but getting things to grow in London clay is much more of a struggle than in the lovely rich dark loam of the French garden! It gives me a buzz to be able to grow my own vegetables! I also really enjoy all the plant fetes in our area and love to go and buy a new addition. I have been lucky in that my French neighbour has watered my garden and cut the grass whilst we have been back in the UK and we come back to find everything pristine! We have always paid him to do this and we are all happy with the arrangement!

I also think that we have had a lot of work renovating our old stone house and even though some people may say is it not too much when we are 60 to keep on doing  this, I think they are wrong as it gives us a challenge - a goal in life! We can look at the house and see what we have achieved together and feel proud! This spurs us on to our new endeavours! I have a cousin who is three years younger than me and she and her husband have just moved into their two bedroomed retirement bungalow. They have a rigid tele viewing routine, they go to the tea dance on Fridays and have an annual holiday.They could not have pets as everything is so tidy and perfect! They occasionally holiday with us in France and I see real concern in her eyes for us as she feels we are missing out on our retirement! But it is horses for courses and we both race in different tracks! We are happy with ours and they with theirs, we cannot all be the same!

We are glad we have had our house for these seven years as we feel we are not going into the unknown and we are well aware of the pluses and the minuses of life in France versus life in the UK! All life is compromise - you just have to add them up and go for the life with most pluses!

I am sorry if I have 'rabbited' on tonight, I never intended to write such a long letter, I think you are to blame Gastines!Your letter inspired me!

 

[monaco]

Athene, I found your reply most interesting, so please don't apologise!  I retired to France five years ago and I have never regretted it. I worked in central London for over eight years and then bought a small flat near Dover.  I hated being in the town and felt claustrophic amongst so many people, cars and buildings.  IN Kent, I lived in a pretty village called St. Margaret's Bay, but I found the locals very 'cliquey' and not at all welcoming of 'comers-in'.  I had worked in Monaco for several years and Brussels for a year, so my Fench was reasonable and I had visited most areas of France.  I have two daughters, ten grandchildren and a great-grandchild on the way, but I feel very close to them all.  Even though I was living abroad when my first grandchildren were born over twenty years ago, I built up a very close relationship with them.  Now, I spend about three months a year in the Uk and the family come out to visit me - not all at once, of course!  I know people who live a few miles from their children and see less of them than I do of mine.  I speak to one daughter every day on the phone and exchange e-mails and phone calls regularly with the other.

I suppose I am unusual in that I really enjoy solitude and do not seek a social life.  When I first came to France I bought a small house in a very tiny, isolated village in the Pyrenees Orientales.  There were only fifty inhabitants, almost all elderly people as the young, like the young everywhere, had gone to the towns to find work/fun/partners.  The ony other foreigners were a Dutch couple who had a holiday home.  I employed local tradesmen to renovate the house, which was almost derelict, and the villagers were most welcoming and pleased to get a permanent resident.  I was invited to join  in every fete, etc. and felt far more at home than I did in my Kent village.  Unfortunately, I had to sell that house as my daughter was left severely disabled by a botched operation (in a UK hospital, naturally) and lost her business.  She would have lost her home as well but I was able to pay her debts from the sale of my house.  For nearly four years, we have been embroiled in a medical negligence case but we are now nearing a settlement and she will be able to repay me some of what I lost, so I will be looking to buy again.  In the meantime, I have rented, firstly in the Dordogne, just North of Perigueux, and now in Lot, near Gourdon.  I have quite enjoyed the chance to live in different areas and it has helped me to make a firm decision about which part of France I want to live.

Apart from the family, the only things I miss are English sausages and bacon and PG tips.  The low cost airlines, although not pleasant to deal with if things go wrong, have made it possible for me to visit the UK whenever my daughter needs me to drive her to see the numerous specialists that the insurers have demanded she consult  - she is unable to drive long distances and for some reason they seem to choose doctors at the far ends of England.  Limoges airport still has free parking, but Toulouse and Bordeaux airports have very expensive parking, so I take a room in a cheap hotel near the airport, about 50 euros for the night, and make sure I can get a taxi to the airport and leave my car in the free car park at the hotel.  It also means I don't have to leave for the airport in the middle of the night.

I have Sky TV so I can keep in touch with my favourite programmes.  I know one ex-pat who insists on having only French TV so she can feel she has 'integrated'.  I don't think the French care whether or not I watch English TV  and they all agree that French TV is mostly rubbish. There is a lot of snobbery involved in the 'I'm more integrated than you'  attitude of some ex-pats.    I want to watch the UK news as the French government is unlikely to do anything that will greatly affect me, but the UK government is always doing something that affects my family - usually for the worst!.

I won't go back to England unless I get to the stage where I need care and at the moment I am very healthy and able to walk several kilometres every day in the lovely countryside round my house.  One of my daughters, who is divorced, wants to join me as soon as her youngest child has left home, in about ten years.  She did consider coming now, but her four children are all at different stages of their education and also want to  socialise in their nearest town.  It is obviously easier to relocate an entire family when the children are young and can learn French quickly.

Financially, I believe it is very hard to be either employed or self-employed in France, but it is wonderful to be retired here. I get 70% of my doctor's fees and 65% of my medication reimbursed by the French government and I have a little mutuelle for hospitalisation.  This costs me a lot less than the private medical insurance I felt obliged to have in the UK.

So, here is one very happy ex-pat, loving living in France but sad about the degeneration of English life and manners.

[Gastines]

To Athene. Don't bother with the Brocants,Dealers only. Go to the Vide-Greniers. The same as a car boot but a bit more social and civilised. We regularly go out to them on a Sunday as it enables us to find different villages/towns all around us. Anything up to 75kms. Plus there is always a saucisse!

Regards.

[powerdesal]

[quote user="Gastines"]

To Athene. Don't bother with the Brocants,Dealers only. Go to the Vide-Greniers. The same as a car boot but a bit more social and civilised. We regularly go out to them on a Sunday as it enables us to find different villages/towns all around us. Anything up to 75kms. Plus there is always a saucisse!

Regards.

[/quote]

Gone are the days when we had our own tame forum sausage  [:(]

[suein56]

[quote user="powerdesal"]
Gone are the days when we had our own tame forum sausage  [:(]
[/quote]

Tame, my foot. More of a spicy saucisse with provocative undertones and a long finish. IMHO of course.

Sue [;-)]

[powerdesal]

Maybe tame was the wrong description...... how about "sort of house trained-ish" [:P]

[MrCanary]

[quote user="monaco"]
I won't go back to England unless I get to the stage where I need care and at the moment I am very healthy and able to walk several kilometres every day in the lovely countryside round my house.  [/quote]

"......unless I get to the stage where I need care.....etc., etc."

This surely has to be one of the most important issues for people who are retired and living, or planning to live, in France? Is the care so bad in France that it is necessary to go back to the UK? Or must one's bones end up being cremated or put in the ground in Britain?

My wife and I have owned our French house for over three years. We have nearly finished renovating it and during this time have tried to discuss all the issues that many people avoid. Friends of ours who already live in France cannot accept that one day they will die.

Perhaps the most important aspect we have discussed is that it is highly unlikely we will both die at the same time. So, will the one of us that remains there alone, be happy about being there alone? My wife is 53 and I am 58. We hope this inevitable situation will be a while off yet, but who knows?

Having talked about our mortality and the likely scenarios, we are now starting to move ahead with our plans with a target date of early 2008 for our permanent move. We are optimists, we believe we have many happy years ahead of us. But we will not cross the line until all our plans are in place - then we can relax!

Mel  

[Llwyncelyn]

I am 63 this year and my wife 60 and we have lived here full time for some two years although owning the house for over six years.

Some people would say that we are not fully commited to France in that we have a house in the UK and which is let on a long-term basis.  However our views are that we live life to the full here in France pay the bills when they fall due (hopefully) pay our tax and hopefully intergrate into the way of life.

However whilst the ultimate sanction may be some years off for my wife there is the pull of her children and grandchildren for me nothing too much for I do not have children and only much older brothers.

In saying that we have chatted about our next move to the Charente Martime and we hopefully will live there for some considerable time but you cannot legislate. When something happens to either of us we cannot at this stage imagine the remaining partner staying in France hence the bolthole and independence in the form of a house back in the UK and which was purchased exactly for that purpose from location mtce upkeep and that sort of thing.

Ok in relative terms foot in both camps but that is our way.

[monaco]

I have lived alone for nearly 25 years so that holds no fears for me.  I will only return to the UK if I actually need nursing care - my daughters are appalled if I say I would be happy to go into a nursing home in France, and I don't think I could afford it anyway, having only a limited income from my pensions.

I have several friends who have been widowed and who thought they could not possibly survive without their spouse - but they have and some have made new lives for themselves.

[AnOther]

Mel  

You pretty well echo's our sentiments and almost our ages too.

It's perhaps not so much a question the quality of care in France but more the needs and wishes of the survivor which can obviously depend on so many factors, how long you've lived in France, have you learnt the language well enough to live alone or are you even willing to etc. not to mention have you the financial means to return to UK if that is you're desire. If you needed to sell your French property to finance a move back remember it can sometimes take one or 2 years or even more to do this.

Informed optimism is a good way to go I think.

I believe there is some agency in France which assists in helping elderly people stay in their own homes rather than an institution. I wonder if anybody here has first hand experience of it or has an elderly relative in the care system ?

 

[Athene]

There is a system you are right! It depends on how incapacitated you are as to how much help you get. Also you have to have the right amount of 'mutuelle' top up to qualify. Our neighbours' old mother who lives with them has a lady (not a nurse) who comes to get her up assist with her washing and sit whilst she has breakfast. The old lady can only walk short distances with a vimmer frame. Also she calls for herdaughter's help to go to the loo several times in the night and our neighbour looks shattered every morning! As well as her old mother, our neighbour childminds too and has to be up with the lark to receive her charges, so life for her is far from easy! Another set of neighbours who had more insurance had a lady who came twice a day to their old mother!

What a nightmare growing old is!

[Patf]

The cost of caring for the elderly in France is almost entirely to be met by the person themselves or their family. Whether help in their own homes or in a maison de retraite. There is some financial help from communal funds for the very poor. This is why so many elderly french people move in with their children and  families as they can't afford to do otherwise. Or if they have realised money from the sale of their home this is kept for the children's inheritance rather than spent on expensive care homes. I don't like thinking about how we will cope when the crunch comes, but believe it would be a bit easier in the uk near family than here. And that's why we too have kept our house there and rented it out. Pat.

[Gastines]

Whilst the discussion has moved somewhat from the logistics of moving to the reasons for considering a move,I would like to add my wife's favourite saying," Nothing's much fun on your own".  This is obviously a major consideration for many couples. We moved here to get more out of life while we were able to enjoy it. We have  a family member who virtually ticks off the years/days etc to when he and his wife, can get their pensions etc to get a life. Whilst I try and sympathise with their view, I firmly think that life is what you make it and if your not enjoying it,NOW is the time to do something about it. With the amount of stress related to most jobs in the UK at the moment,eg. Will the FIRM go bust with my pension? Will the firm move to Indonisia to save having to pay a UK working wage? Will Gordon take another 20% off me and have I remembered not to overfill the rubbish bin and put it out on the right day., I'm only surprised that most Uk residents can sleep at night. Sorry, that is working,tax paying residents. Many of the couples we know have moved to France to try and at least enjoy a life that they think they've earnt but for many this comes at a time when we consider what happens when one or the other is not here or incapicitated. No fun being on your own comes to mind and if you have family in the UK it seems a fairly reasonable desire to return there. The thought of going into care might not appeal when the cost of a place, if you can find one, seems to be about £6-800. a WEEK. A few extra pills seems like an option.

Hopefully not going anywhere yet.

Regards.

[chessfou]

There's apparently a big difference in cost:

£300-£1000+/week in UK

http://www.housingcare.org/making-elderly-housing-choices/care-homes.aspx#payforcarehome

v. €1700/month = €392/week = £270/week average in France

http://www.seniorplanet.fr/mag/les-parlementaires-envisagent-des-aides-pour-payer-la-maison-de-retraite.13260.html

which looks like the UK average must be at least double the French average.

[just taking a break from mind-boggling tax questions]

[monaco]

I suppose I am an eternal optimist, but as my mother was ballroom dancing into her late 80's I refuse to spoil my present idyllic life in France by worrying about the future.  With two loving daughters, ten grandchildren and a great grandchild on the way, I believe I will be cared for if I ever need it.  Am I the only person who has retired to France on their own?  It really is quite pleasant, you know, to be able to decide exactly what you want to do and where you want to go!  One of my daughters would love me to go back and live with her and her children (she is divorced) but I like my freedom and my life here.

[Athene]

I think it is a good idea to cover your options and keep a UK property if at all possible. Besides it is a 'nice little earner' rent-wise to top up the pension! However not everyone can afford to do this and with property prices ever rising in the UK, it is wise to consider the future if you are a certain age. If you feel that you could not face life alone in France then the sooner you are back in Blighty maybe the better as if you leave it till later, it may not be an option open to you!

I agree with Monaco that living on your own has its compensations. I was married for 24 years then divorced and dreaded facing the world alone! However, I was pleasantly surprised how well I adapted to it. I played tennis and bridge and had a social life around those. I liked being able to eat what I wanted when I wanted and go to bed and get up when I wanted. However this regime did not last and my younger daughter moved back home for two years. Again I had become set in my ways and was not looking forward to it - again I was completely wrong! We had the most marvellous two years and spent quality time together as two adults that was completely different from the last time she had spent at home as a young adult fed up of home rules before going off to university.Having had this experience, I am not fearful of living alone and know that I would be happier alone in France than alone in the UK. I agree with what Gastines says that life is becoming quite difficult in the UK! Rubbish collections are going down to once a fortnight and you have to be so so careful what you put in what bag - you are to be fined if you make mistakes! Also twigs going into green garden waste bags have to be a standard size and the bags will not be taken if the twigs are even a couple of centimetres over - the collection men carry rulers! I know, I have transgressed! The postal system is a nightmare with packages disappearing! Everything of value you send must be insured! And the hospitals... I have just had a friend who went in for a routine hysterectomy die after catching a 'superbug'! She was 45! I have a friend who does bank nursing in the local hospitals and what she has to say about standards makes your hair curl! I have visited a neighbour in the local French hospital and I have seen for myself their cleaning regime. Yes 'superbugs' will get through but with proper cleaning with disposable wipes and all new for each room and corridor, it is cut down to the minimum! Just why they cannot do the same in the UK is beyond me! You see the same mop and bucket trailed from one place to another spreading everything in its wake!

Yes the thrust of this thread has changed but it is very interesting!

[Chancer]

If an elderly person or couple sell their property and enter a retirement home in France, which from above I understand that they have to pay all the charges, what happens if they outlive their capital?

[Framboise]

My husband and I plan to flit these shores next year when the work at our lovely house should be nearing completion, although that saying I suspect it will be a case of repainting the Forth Bridge in that it is an ongoing job and probably without an end in sight.  Not that we mind -   it is a labour of love for us to quietly toil at the task of making our house as beautiful as she deserves to be, growing from an ugly duckling into the magnificent edifice we know she will be.  Eventually....

Our reasons for this are pretty much like everyone elses because we too are fed-up with being persecuted by the Government, harrangued and bothered by Jobsworths and having every single civil liberty removed by Those We Stupidly Elected under False Pretences, moreover we admire the way the French people simply do not take this type of garbage from their ilustrious leaders and promptly oust them, rather than wring their hands and whimper as we appear to do so very well.   We also admire the way the French Govt. don't accept any of the EEC nonsense if they feel it is against Their Culture and simply ignore it, whereas how often do we see Our Lot grovellng to some Euro stuffed shirt and signing us up to yet another disaster for this country?    Disasters to which we are given absolutely no say-so as to whether WE want them or not!  Well for us, we reached the end of the line with it all and are set to pursue our future in France next year when the house is moreorless finished and our daughter has finished her appenticeship.   Our life becomes our own at last     yippeeee!!!

We do of course know that there may only be twenty miles between these shores and France, yet it makes a world of difference in the scheme of things in every facet of life.  We are leaving our small suburban house in the outskirts of London to join a tiny rural community in the Orne - total opposites of each other - but athough we will miss family and friends we have realised that we are never going to find true happinness here as England vanishes down the plughole.   Every time we have to leave France it becomes more of a wrench to get on that ferry, knowing that aggro and road-rage are lurking outside the ferry terminal in wait for us, ndeed we both look forward to the day we can say "We are going home to stay finally....." and not have to return here unless we choose to do so.  I can't wait!

 

[Patf]

JR - if a french person is in a retirement home and their money runs out family members have to pay up, or take the old people in to live with them.  Moya - all I can say is that I don't feel that way at all about returning to UK. But I hope you will be happy in France as we are. Southend was good too, just a bit crowded. Pat.

[AnOther]

[quote user="Gastines"]...when the cost of a place, if you can find one, seems to be about £6-800. a WEEK. A few extra pills seems like an option....[/quote]Surprised this little quip hasn't raised more response.................[blink]