Astra 2F Discussion Here Please!

[Clair]

There have been a few comments regarding the possibility of a deterioration or even a loss of satellite signal once the newly-launched Astra 2F satellite comes into play mid-November.

I copy the comments below for reference:

[quote user="Quillan"]... a new satellite was

launched yesterday which could have a profound impact on receiving UK

TV in France via satellite...

It is predicted (although not know for certain) that the UK channels

will move to this new satellite in November after which we may be OK ,

we may need a big (like 1M dia) dish or even bigger or we may loos

access to UK TV (and radio) completely. [/quote]

[quote user="Daft Doctor"]... we must wait and see what the practical as opposed to the

predicted UK beam footprint will be.  All the info on predicted

footprints I've just looked at suggests that here in Haute Savoie we

should still have reception from the UK beam and be able to access Sky

and fta UK channels, but we might well need to upgrade to an 80cm dish

to do it.  Seems that Humax offers no advantage in terms of the dish and

connections needed, so we'll just have to find a non-intrusive way of

kitting up the new rental apartment.[/quote]

[quote user="Sprogster"]... the new satellite should not have any

impact on northern France as Sky and Freesat have to maintain sufficient

coverage and signal strength for the Channel Islands, being part of

Great Britain and liable to the UK TV licence fee!

Sky also have thousands of subscribers in Jersey and Guernsey and

transmit BBC Channel Islands and Channel ITV.[/quote]

[quote user="AnOther"]This is the anticipated footprint of the new 2F satellite.

[img]https://sat.ses.com/webservice/images/12494500[/img][/quote]

[quote user="Daft Doctor"]... 2F UK footprint map shows

the area which should have reception with either a 45cm or 60cm

dish.  [...] we reside just outside of the 60cm zone, which is why I

think it is both likely that we will have reception but that an 80cm

dish will be needed.  There is of course a chance that we will have no

reception but on the info I have seen online I think this is very

unlikely. [/quote]

[quote user="AnOther"]... I am further South of the footprint than

DaftDoctor is East of it but fully expect to be able to continue viewing. Let's

face it, the 2F footprint is virtually identical to the equivalent 60cm

2D one and if that is to be taken as anything approaching accurate then I

should be getting hardly a whiff on a 'tractor seat' ![/quote]

We have a 60x90 -Zone 2- dish and judging by the most recent footprint map, we'll be borderline and may well need to go for a larger (80cm?) dish.

Do they do oval 80cm dishes?[8-)]

[Jako]

[quote user="Clair"]

Do they do oval 80cm dishes?[8-)]

[/quote]

Sure, almost all dishes are oval. The difference is that almost the entire world minus the UK use dishes that are oval in the vertical sense. [:)] The hight is larger than the width. The official SES footprint is very conservative. You can use a 45 cm dish in the 60 cm area. A zone 2 dish will do fine just outside the official footprint.

But we simply do not know how fast the signal will degrade outside the 60 cm area. SES-Astra  have already tested a spotbeam on astra1 for Poland  that degraded from a 60 cm to a 120 cm dish in just 100 km.  But the  Astra1 position is almost strait above Poland, ideal for a a spotbeam, unlike Astra2 for the UK.

Just be patient for another month or two.[kiss]

[Clair]

[quote user="Jako"]... we simply do not know how fast the signal will degrade outside the 60 cm area...[/quote]

Thanks Jako.

We have a quad LNB (which is why we got a 60x90 dish) for our Humax and an occasional borderline signal on some channels. I am almost resigned to having to get a larger dish... [:(]

[Théière]

Well I am ready [:)]

[Martin963]

For all his embarrassingly brash style,   this guy has often been proved right in the past...

http://robssatellitetv.webs.com/astra2f.htm

But we won't really know until it's up and running.

[Jako]

While we are all waiting for Astra2f to become operational, a serious dispute between SES and Eutelsat is emerging on new frequencies to be used by Astra2f

There seems to be an increasing anger about old German rights for a frequency band handed over to French Eutelsat , disputed by Luxemburg's SES Astra and paid for by Brits.[:)]

I am not sure about possible copyright, so read here and here

One thing is certain: lawyers are going to earn big money.

[Martin963]

A somewhat garbled version of this story appeared elsewhere a few days ago.....

I seem to remember that in the very early days of all this (ie 1998 or 1999) there was at least one frequency in use by both organisations simultaneously in a "who can outjam the other" trial.   This was before Eurobird launched and before they both came to an agreement that Eutelsat could use 11.2 - 11.7 and 12.5 to 12.7 GHz.

My view is:  couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of people.   If they are silly enough to let it run to lawyers then they deserve everthing they get.

I suspect it will be settled,  just as it was prior to the launch of Eurobird.

[Martin963]

It seems possible that we'll know our fate as far as the new satellite is concerned around mid-November.   Testing is proceeding at the temporary location and it's thought that the satellite will begin its final move fairly soon over to 28 deg E.

I'm sure I muttered something about having to "eat my hat if" back in the early summer.   We'll see.....

[Jako]

Well, at least we can be quite confident that any reception issue in France can be resolved with a bigger dish. Brits in southern Spain and especially the Canary Islands are becoming more and more worried by the day. As satellite-business imploded, some sellers are now giving 'guarantees' that their equipment will keep working.

[PaulT]

Looking around on the Internet re 1.2m dishes on one forum they recommend an Inverto ultra black lnb - are these good and of any use in improving signal quality?

Paul

[PaulT]

At least having a satelitte dish is a human right:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023359/Having-satellite-dish-human-right-says-European-court.html

Paul

[Quillan]

Have to say that like Paul I am looking around just to be prepared but it is a bit confusing if you don't know much about them. For instance what is an 'off set' dish, are they better? With regards to getting the most out of your dish is there a difference between steel and alloy dishs indeed what is the best material for a dish of this size? I am sure to those that 'know' these are basic questions but please remember some of us are rank amateurs when it comes to these things. In the old days you just went and got a cheap dish from the Brico, shoved it up, aligned it and off you went. Actually taking of alignment are bigger dishes more difficult to align? I am sure many of us would be happy for some advice from the experts about dish's and LNB's.

[Jako]

First: do not make any investment until 2f is operational.

The Inverto black ultra is indeed currently widely considered one of the best lnb's and not expensive. (outside France..[;-)].) And they improve signal quality in fringe area's.

An offset dish is a cheap way to move the LNB out of the incoming energy beam so the LNB itself will not cast a 'shadow'.  This means more signal for the LNB when using the same dish size compared to a axial dish. So in general this is a good option. But as the dish size gets bigger it will be more difficult to construct it as the focal point moves away from the dish and the length of the arm holding the lnb will get unstable. That is why a 1.2 meter offset dish usually has two extra stabilisation arms.

Most people (and even dealers!) are unaware of the fact that a dish is constructed for use of a certain LNB type (not just 'universal')  and using a LNB with a different feedhorn than what the dish was designed for will make the LNB either look outside the dish (receiving more noise) or look only at a part of the dish (receiving less signal). The focal angle of the LNB's feedhorn should be the same as the f/d value of the dish. (usually 0.6), but unfortunately the value is not always published. (f=distance of focal point, d=dish diameter)

A good quality dish performs a lot better than the 'Brico' piss-steel dishes. A 80 cm cheap dish usually performs about the same as a 60 cm quality dish.

The problem is that the quality and price are not 1:1 related. But buying a brand (triax, visiosat, etc) usually buys better quality than a non-branded dish.

As the size of a dish increases the opening angle decreases. That is a good thing because you do not want to receive signals from other satellites that are close to Astra2 position at 28.2e like Astra3 (23.5e) or BADR (26e) especially in fringe area's. But the downside is that it is more difficult to point a bigger dish at the exact location AND make sure it will never move again.  As the dish size increases so does the wind load, so make sure your construction can take the windforce and weight of the dish.

[Quillan]

Some interesting information there and yes, your right, lets wait and see although be so far down south I have a sneaky suspicion that I may need one but we shall see.

I was looking around to try and find reviews on the Internet to discover who make the best dish's but didn't have much luck and the ones I have come across seem to me motorised which is not what I need. There is a lot of techno babble about 2F most of which I don't understand. I wonder if anyone can give a list of quality dish's that should work by manufacturer?

[Jako]

No, nobody can until 2f is operational.

The biggest extra 'tech' problem that 2f might introduce is re-using the same frequencies on both spot-beams. The beams being the UK and West-Africa beam. In between the spotbeams you will receive both signals and no matter the dish size, you will be unable to block the 'wrong' transmission. But that will never be a problem in France.

[Martin963]

Astra 2F is now moving (has been for a day or so) from 43 deg E westwards towards 28 deg E.   So not long to wait now..... (well,  probably a couple of weeks still).

[PaulT]

Martin

Thanks for the update

Paul

[Martin963]

23rd to 26th November seems the most likely time that we'll first know what we're up against.

I'm rather disappointed that I shall be in Devon at the time,  but it'll save me trailing round sorting out all the dishes (should it prove necessary) round about us in France.    It'll be a shock for some there to actually have to *pay* for help,  a few of them have got rather too used to my free service!

[Quillan]

[quote user="Martin963"]23rd to 26th November seems the most likely time that we'll first know what we're up against.

I'm rather disappointed that I shall be in Devon at the time,  but it'll save me trailing round sorting out all the dishes (should it prove necessary) round about us in France.    It'll be a shock for some there to actually have to *pay* for help,  a few of them have got rather too used to my free service!
[/quote]

Well you could fill up your car with 1.2M dishes and flog them on at a profit. I would think many will be gaging to get hold of one, including me, when they loose their UK TV. I am not too worried other than missing out on the 6N this year and next but Mrs 'Q', well if she doesn't get her daily dose of Bargain Hunt she will get really peed off which means my life will be hell. [:'(]

[Martin963]

A 1m dish is relatively easily obtained,  I've just got a replacement one for Devon to replace the one I've exported to France;  it was from an ebay seller for £34.98.   I have a feeling Amazon probably do them somewhere.

But don't panic until we see what's going to happen in reality.....  although you are a long way south Quillan,  so you'll be one of the first to notice!!

[Quillan]

I was reading some stuff up on the web and they talk about beams, apparently there is a Pan European (PE) beam and a UK spot beam. I appreciate that BBC etc will be on the spot beam but what will you pick up on the PE beam?

Some seem to think that the spot beam will reach in to northern Spain but as you said it is probably just a guess. I was wondering how these companies set up in Spain that forward on the UK TV using decoders etc. My BIL has an Internet, phone and TV deal from an English run company there, sort of like what the ISP's (Orange etc) offer in France but for the French. Could this be the end for them or is there another way they will be able to get hold of live UK TV?

[Jako]

More media are now reporting that all BBC transponders will move to 2F this month. Just two more weeks...[:)]

[Quillan]

It seems Martins prediction was correct then. I have been looking round the webs at dish's and found this one on Amazon France.

http://www.amazon.fr/parabole-satellite-diam%C3%A8tre-galvanise--Systemsat/dp/B008VSYTO6/ref=sr_1_27?s=home-theater&ie=UTF8&qid=1352878708&sr=1-27

It seems the only one of 1M or above that is offset with a tripod type mount for the LNB. I have absolutely no idea if it is any good.

[Martin963]

Q - I don't know the answer about how some of those Spanish "outfits" get their feeds,  but I did read about sat installers folding there - presumably because some of their "guarantees" might be subject to dispute if the signal all but disappears....

The 100 cm dishes on Amazon don't look bad value given that everything like that seems to be a bit more expensive in France.

As Jako will agree,   don't do anything until we have some reports in about how "bad" it's going to be.   My hunch is that in 24 I'm going to be able to stick with my 80 cm dish - but we will see....

[Quillan]

I agree about waiting to see, I am just trying to come up with a 'plan B' so that if the worse does happen then I won't be running round like the chicken with its head cut off as it is a technology I know little about being just a user. Thanks for your useful comments anyway. I need to look at LNB's as well as you techies guys say they are equally as important, I shall look up the one Jako mentioned earlier.

The one thing I did notice on my initial search was that many offerings of 1M and bigger dishes seem to be motorised which is something I don't need. For me it a touch of 'point and forget' is all that is required which I guess is the same for many users.