Astra 2E/2F Technical Thread

[joidevie]

Things seem reasonable in Herault 34/Aude 11 now with a 100cm dish (Gibertini), but a little rain does spoil the party. A quick wipe of the LNB quickly restores the picture.. (Fortunately the dish is easy to get to).

I've now ordered an "LNB Protector" (a rain cover) to help avoid rain drops on the LNB surface (it makes a big difference if you wipe the front clear of rain drops). A kind of 'umbrella' that attaches to the arm. I went for a 'smoked' one (UV protection) as it gets very sunny during the summer, and I've read LNB's degrade in bright sunlight... Anything to minimise the variables!

I invested in a hand held sat detector (Satlink 6908) which was a revelation - point and shoot!

Now I have a picture back, I will next try to tweak the dish to get  More 4 as at the moment I only get More 4 +1, however that may compromise better reception on other channels..

Time will tell, but I'm sure things will settle and most of us will find a solution of some sort?

[PaulT]

More4 and More4 + 1 are on different transponders and some seem to have more power than others. For example, ITV3 and ITV3 + 1 are on the same transponder so if you cannot get one you cannot get the other.

From my investigations the channels on what for me is the strongest has:

BBC1 - North East & Cumbria, North West, Scotland, South East, Yorks & North Midlands what

BBC2 - Scotland

BBC Alba

If anyone would like a spreadsheet showing the service, i.e. BBC1 and which regions are on the same transponder send me your email address (far easier and compiled from info on Lyngsat.

[sid]

[quote user="fisherman"]We are a half an hour north of Confolens. We had a 60cm dish that stopped working in February. Is there anybody in this area who can advise on the size of dish that they find works for them. Many Thanks[/quote]

We are level with Confolens and about 50km to the west. We have noticed absolutely no change in our TV reception. We have a 60cm dish.

 

[fisherman]

Thanks Sid. Just the advice I needed.

I did not measure the dish on my last visit. I'm in the UK just now & as it looked to be about 2 feet wide guessed that that was it's size. However it is an old standard southern England Sky dish & after a bit of research it seems that it could be 53cm. I'll have to measure it on my next trip & maybe get a new dish in place in the autumn.

Again Thanks for your advice.

[ericd]

[quote user="fisherman"]Thanks Sid. Just the advice I needed. I did not measure the dish on my last visit. I'm in the UK just now & as it looked to be about 2 feet wide guessed that that was it's size. However it is an old standard southern England Sky dish & after a bit of research it seems that it could be 53cm. I'll have to measure it on my next trip & maybe get a new dish in place in the autumn. Again Thanks for your advice.[/quote]

Yours is I believe a sky Region 1 dish. Our which is larger and a Sky Region 2 is (well was in February) receiving all main channels. Will confirm this next week when I return.

[joidevie]

For anyone still having reception issues, I cannot over emphasize the need for dish accuracy and the quality of the dish build itself.. And also the benefit of a satellite finder (not the cheapie £5 ones). It may cost you €100 for the finder, but only yesterday I tweaked our dish and gained merely one more digit on the signal quality (from 63 to 64) but suddenly now have More 4 as well as More 4+1 (on different transponders) and now also have no noticeable picture blocking. Without the finder, I would never have got there..

I can also recommend the 'Gibertini 100' dish which is very light and fits on an existing mount. The dish had almost as much db rating as a 120cm without the need for re-mounting, and looks ok size wise. I've read a lot of people buying the Triax 110, but in truth, it appears the dimensions are almost identical, as too the db count. I avoided the Triax as I'd read that the tilt/mount system was a pig.

So far, my punt has paid off, and shelling out all the effort/cost/hassle/looks of a 120cm has been avoided - but who knows, it could all still go wrong!

Dish €70

Meter €100

(DIY so no 'specialist' labour cost).

Bought on Ebay Germany, delivered within 5 days.

I hope this helps anyone struggling, or deciding on their next step..

[Quillan]

You're dead right about dish quality and alignment but then many have said that before so if others ignore that then it's their problem.

I am on my second Triax dish, the current is a 130cm one. I have also had a Gibertini which is a good dish as well. Of course the size will vary a lot the further south you go and where you are in relationship to the beam (West or East). No problems with alignment but then I have a professional to do it which took about 30 minutes. If there is a problem later on then it's down to him (or his company) to resolve the issue. I am far too old to go climbing up ladders and run around on roofs.

I found the best channel to test on is ITV HD as this always seems to be the first one to show a problem. With the other dish we noticed that between midnight and one there would be around 30 minutes of bad pixelation, so bad the picture is unwatchable (but we didn't lose it completely) although all the other HD channels as well as SD ones were OK. Before that we would lose ITV HD first then C5 etc which is why I conclude that ITV HD is the one to watch. Easy enough to check I just set my Humax box to record all night and played it back in the morning. With x32 speed playback it is very easy to see when the picture pixelates and at what time.

A good LNB is equally important as you are also probably aware.

[sid]

[quote user="fisherman"]Thanks Sid. Just the advice I needed. I did not measure the dish on my last visit. I'm in the UK just now & as it looked to be about 2 feet wide guessed that that was it's size. However it is an old standard southern England Sky dish & after a bit of research it seems that it could be 53cm. I'll have to measure it on my next trip & maybe get a new dish in place in the autumn. Again Thanks for your advice.[/quote]

I can't comment on the SKY dish except to say that it is designed for reception in UK where the signal is stronger and also it is designed to be more aesthetically pleasing (or should I say just less obtrusive!). I still see them occasionally around here.

I bought a standard OPTEX 60cm dish from either Castorama or Mr Bricolage (I can't remember which, it was 10 years ago) along with one of their mono LNBs for around 80€ including the bracket. I have since replaced the LNB with a better quality quad LNB for our Humax plus second TV. At the time of installation the signal was strong and I did all the set up with a compass, protractor and a long stick!! I think a decent "finder" would make things a lot easier.

 

[joidevie]

[quote user="Quillan"]

A good LNB is equally important as you are also probably aware.

[/quote]

I forgot about the LNB..

I'm actually running a SCD (Unicable) Inverto 'Black' LNB which allows me have full functionality with a Humax Foxsat HDR (ie. able to multi record etc.) without having to twin cable everything (a relief as most of the coax runs under a newly laid stone floor!)

Works a treat  [Www]

[Quillan]

[quote user="joidevie"][quote user="Quillan"]

A good LNB is equally important as you are also probably aware.

[/quote]

I forgot about the LNB..

I'm actually running a SCD (Unicable) Inverto 'Black' LNB which allows me have full functionality with a Humax Foxsat HDR (ie. able to multi record etc.) without having to twin cable everything (a relief as most of the coax runs under a newly laid stone floor!)

Works a treat  [Www]
[/quote]

I am also using the same LNB and it is better than the one that came with the dish. Not a huge amount mind but when your 'on the edge' as it were every little helps. I am also concidering looking at a feedhorn as from what I have read this could give me an extra couple of db's strength wise and at least 1db quality wise.

[joidevie]

I've never gone down the 'feedhorn' route? Is is a replacement 'insert' for an LNB, and is it a generic interchangeable upgrade? (ie would a particular type be needed for the 'Inverto SCD' for example..). Does the front of an LNB come off and you swap it over?

There seems to be a certain dish type (size) these work for as well...

Like you say, every db seems to make quite a difference..

PS The rain 'umbrella' or 'hood' has also been a revelation - no more rain drops on the LNB front which was blowing my signal every time it rained. I've heard an empty plastic bottle can help too   [;-)]

[Quillan]

[quote user="joidevie"]I've never gone down the 'feedhorn' route? Is is a replacement 'insert' for an LNB, and is it a generic interchangeable upgrade? (ie would a particular type be needed for the 'Inverto SCD' for example..). Does the front of an LNB come off and you swap it over?

There seems to be a certain dish type (size) these work for as well...

Like you say, every db seems to make quite a difference..

PS The rain 'umbrella' or 'hood' has also been a revelation - no more rain drops on the LNB front which was blowing my signal every time it rained. I've heard an empty plastic bottle can help too   [;-)]
[/quote]

Neither have I so it is something new to learn. Basically your 'normal' LNB has a form of feedhorn built in but you can get better performance with a bigger feedhorn specifically when it comes to noise and interference between horizontal and vertical polarisation. So these things come in two parts, the LNB and the feedhorn. I kept seeing C120 being banded around and worked out that this is the 'standard' for the flange mount. Basically the LNB has a flange as does the feedhorn so the two can be bolted together and although it is advisable to buy the two as a matching pair you don't have to so they need a standard so the bolts line up on the flanges which is called C120.

The next bit I learned was that you need the right LNB for the dish as there are three types, Sky wide oval, offset and prime focus (or round). Then it gets a bit more complex because these techie guys also refer to offset dishes as round as well when to us they look oval shaped. That’s because with the offset arm for the LNB they actually present the signal as a round or circular pattern at the focal point. You can get prime focus LNB's to work on offset dishes and the other way round apparently but you loose out on signal quality and strength quite a bit. This apparently becomes even more important when you’re dealing with feedhorns as far as I understand it. So my current problem is to find a feedhorn and LNB that will specifically work with my shape and sized dish which is basically a 130cm although in reality it is 134 x 127cm but at the focal point it is presented as a 130cm round dish.

I am going to phone a couple of guys up in the UK tomorrow firstly to see if how I understand it is correct and secondly to get some ideas on the best LNB and feedhorn to buy for my dish.

[Danny]

plenty of good general advice/explantion here

http://www.satellitesuperstore.com/feedhorns.htm#advice

The main general advice is Dish size is everything. [:-))][:P]

[Quillan]

And he is of course right. That said he goes on to say that is some cases (and he quotes mainland Spain and the Spanish islands) fitting one has made the difference between some channels getting pixels and not getting pixels. He even goes on further to say that in some cases it has pulled in the signal when there was none before. Seeing as we only have a problem with one or two channels at particular times of the day I thought it might be worth a try especially as the next size up dish is considerably more expensive than the one I have now.

[PaulT]

Past week or so the reception on an 80cm dish changed from being OK most of the time to being very blocky at times or NO SIGNAL. Just installed a 130cm dish and we now have not just good quality SD channels but also HD channels.

The site that Q referenced earlier says the important things are, dish size, dish size and dish size.

[AnOther]

[quote user="Quillan"]A good LNB is equally important as you are also probably aware.[/quote]

But what is a good LNB ?

Lowest noise figure you say - think again !

[url]http://www.satcritics.com/sc_tech_lnb.pdf[/url]

[Quillan]

A good LNB performs better all round than others and of course to get better you pay more money which is what he is saying when he compares different LNB's on pages 6, 7 and 8.

If you lived in the UK most if not all the LNB's meet the standards he mentions even though they are now out of date and he should be looking at the Astra 2 specification rather than the old, to be retired, Eutelsat satellites.

You also have to keep in mind that the maximum disk size specified is 60cm for the Astra satellites servicing the UK after which your on your own and as we have seen there are no guaranteed results. Somebody 15km away can get excellent reception on a 100cm dish where as you could be struggling with a 130cm one. When you get to this level it is worthwhile looking at a better performing LNB like the Invacom which has definitely helped people who have been having reception problems.

In theory it is all down to the dish size and won't find anyone who disagrees. You should be able to any standard LNB but just increase the dish size till it works. However a good LNB can effectively add a couple of cm to the size of your dish and perhaps when used with a feedhorn of good quality you can make a 130cm dish perform the same as a 140cm. It all comes down to the price of the dish and practical side of mounting it. A 130cm dish will cost around 130 Euros, move up to a 150cm dish of reasonable quality and your looking at about 600 Euros, should you need to go even bigger to say a 180 cm dish you're looking at a grand. Then there is the installation cost, a 130cm dish will bolt to the side of your house, move to a 150 and 180 and you are looking at constructing a ground mount on a concrete pad which adds serious cost to the installation. So if you're on the edge of reception and suffer from a bit of pixelation now and again or you only need light rain to lose your picture it may pay to look at a better quality LNB and even a feedhorn.

One thing I didn't see him mention is length of cable. As he says you want the right amount of gain but if you have a long cable run due to where you can mount your dish even with a quality cable you may need a high gain LNB so that when the signal arrives at your decoder it is at the right level with maximum signal quality and lowest noise levels.

Other than that it is an excellent bit of work with some simple explanations which certainly helped me as I am sure it will others.

[Jako]

With the new 8PSK transmissions the phase noise is more important than previously. If the SD channels are ok, but the HD channels are not and the LNB is new it might just be a production 'glitch'. According to the skyinmadrid website the quality control at Inverto's is poor and the consumer might end up with a mediocre LNB.  Their advice is to use an Invacom LNB in fringe areas and a reader comment of "Gordon, Frejus, France" seems to confirm this:

"Re your news item of March 15th where you recommended Invacom LNB's.

As Astra 2E came into service I re-cabled my 1.2 meter dish and bought a

new Sedea LNB.

However I was still losing my 'local' BBC1 and all BBC HD channels from

tea-time onwards. Following your rercommendation I bought

an Invacom twin LNB from Amazon France for €43, and the difference is

remarkable.

I can now get ALL channels both SD and HD at all times of day and night,

the signal strength on my weaker feed has gone from 40%

at best time of day, to 70% for Quality, and 85% for strength.

I live in a forested area in South Eastern France."

[Quillan]

Must admit I am looking at buying an Invacom LNB at the moment and possibly go all the way and attach it to a Raven offset feedhorn although I am waiting to speak to somebody nearby who apparently has one fitted and who, I have been told, have had no problems at all but we shall see.

Those that I know with a 130cm dish round here lost most channels yesterday morning and today although yesterday they came back at around 13:30 but no sign of them today (even taking the overnight time change into account). I have also read on another forum that those who jumped the gun early on and bought 100 and 110cm dishes around the area are having major problems and have done so for around three weeks. All I can say is that both yesterday and today there is a lot of really thick nasty black cloud hanging around the Pyrenees which I believe is causing most of the problems round here.

It seems that down south once you think you got the problem licked something else comes along to upset things.

[PaulT]

Someone living about 8 miles from me bought a 130cm dish, set it up and got both SD and HD channels. I therefore bought the same dish and set it up yesterday. The result was both SD and HD channels and quality up to about 85%.

Got up this morning and checked and everything was fine. Then the phone went'have you any reception especially on BBC1 (GP on at the time) - it was the person referred to above. 'Yes, everything is fine'. 'I haven't' was the reply.

Obviously, my dish was aligned yesterday and his a few weeks ago. Has the satellite moved? Conditions here are very cloudy and normally this would mean a poor picture or none at all. As I type this ITV 85% quality.

It was also very windy yesterday.

[Quillan]

If your thinking of me then it wasn't. Mine was aligned on Thursday as part of a 'control' by the supplier and I only spoke to people (by phone) on Saturday and one person face to face today when walking the dogs. If it wasn't me your thinking about then I apologize in advance.

[HoneySuckleDreams]

This is one reason why I went for 150cm. Everyone was saying that 120-130 would be OK but I wanted to be sure. Foul weather at the moment but still 95/90% on the Strength and Quality..... smug mode [:D]

[NB; I was one of those people who bought a 1m dish last Autumn thinking it would be OK, sadly not. However, if any one knows someone who wants a 1m dish...probably north of the Gers then drop me a line and we can come to some sort of arrangement]

[PaulT]

No Q was not thinking of you but various comments on fora about losing reception - so just putting forward an opinion.

[val douest]

This is just to confirm what others of you have been saying. Around here - Tarbes, Hautes Pyrénées - about a week ago an 80cm dish with a 5-year old LNB worked tolerably well on all channels, including HD. The day before yesterday people were 'phoning me to say everything, apart from "Movies4men" and similar, had gone.

Some while ago I installed a 1.2m X 1.3m dish, and this still works well, similar to what PaulT has found. I bought a new quad LNB from a german company, and when this first arrived I fitted it to my old 80cm dish, which by then had lost all BBC and ITV channels. There was an immediate improvement: BBC1 reappeared, but it was still variable. So, changing to a modern high quality LNB does help, and skyinmadrid.com, already mentioned in this forum, has useful suggestions on this and on problems with reception in general.

It appears that the signal from Astra 2E has gone down very recently. Perhaps there is some retuning going on, or the power output has simply decreased.

A local friend has bought a 1.2m mesh dish with a new LNB, but try as we might we could not receive BBC or ITV on it. I calculate the wavelength we are receiving from the satellite is about 3cm, ie much larger than the mesh pitch, so I didn't think this would make much difference, but it clearly does. Maybe the dish shape was poor; anyway, in a marginal area where we are it pays to buy a good quality dish. I have helped several people round here set up their 1.2m X1.3m fibre/epoxy dishes, and the results have been excellent.

Lastly, my old Topfield 4000PVR Plus box has taken exception to Film 4 and Channel 4, which are on the same frequency. My even older Sky box has no problem with them, so clearly the amplifiers in the decoders vary. It looks like I'll have to buy a new one.

[Quillan]

I think these recent problems like those over the weekend and today (so far) are to do with the weather i.e. cloud density. On both Saturday and Sunday we had very thick low cloud, today it is higher and not quite so thick but still thick compared to 'normal'. When we and others were having our 130cm dish installed the weather was good with hardly any, if any, cloud around so everything appeared to be OK.

Of course what this really means is there is a fundamental problem that may or may not be resolved by a better LNB or the next size up dish. We had a loan of an old (and I mean old) 150cm dish for a while which gave occasional problems but nothing like this. Unfortunately because it had the smaller diameter LNB mount we could not swap the LNB for another to try and improve things more. I am starting to think that for me a new 150cm dish with a good quality LNB may be the answer. So I am seriously looking to buy a Invacom with a feedhorn to try on the 130cm dish and if that does not work 100% of the time to buy a 150cm. The thing is it is a lot of money to experiment with if it does not work.