The Myth of French Education

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

Apart from seeing you as an investment bankerCjd it,s the first time I`ve seen any of your postings making sense.For all the bac gives in the way the french teach it seems to me now that the the french are taught to learn and not think.

[Cjb]

I'm surprised you can see me at all, Outcast!! Work it out!!

[Hoddy]

I can confirm that it certainly was the case a few year’s back that many on this forum just assumed that French education was superior to that in the UK. I remember having some especially nasty replies when I defended education in England. At least part of the problem is that all of us are generalising from our own narrow experience. In my own, admittedly narrow experience, I was never timid or feeble about discipline. The only times when I even thought about the possibility of litigation was when I took children on trips abroad. In twenty-six years I was never threatened or even sworn at. This was a multi-ethnic comprehensive school of over a thousand pupils.

Never underestimate the worth of a good headteacher. When a parent wrote in to say that his child would not be attending detention, our head rang him and asked which new school his child would be starting at next week. High-handed, yes, but the school was always, and still is, over subscribed.

I know next to nothing about French education, but judging from what I read of the experience of others in France I would advise anyone who wants to move to France simply to improve their child's educational chances to have a good look around at the possibilities in the UK first.

Hoddy

[Ormx]

In France they learn by heart, but don't learn to think. How the hell did they produce such great men and women throughout the ages, great companies, great fashion, great chefs etc. etc. etc.

In the UK you learn to think for yourselves, I've seen it written many times. So why do most of you here want to buy a barn, renovate and run a gite in France as the TV told you to?

[Russethouse]

>>>In the UK you learn to think for yourselves, I've seen it written many times. So why do most of you here want to buy a barn, renovate and run a gite in France as the TV told you to?<<<

Could that because its a forum for people moving to France ?

For many people the renovation idea is not only a financial consideration, some of them relish the challenge.

[Hegs]

People in the UK spend tens of thousands of pounds moving just a few miles so then can be in the catchment area for "good" schools and others spend the same amount a year to get out of the state education system altogether.

How can you even start to compare the quality of UK and French education sensibly when there are such variations from one area to the next?

[Miki]

 

In France they learn by heart, but don't learn to think. How the hell did they produce such great men and women throughout the ages, great companies, great fashion, great chefs etc. etc. etc.

No exceptions allowed then for the French, humans will often find their way in life, regardlesss of the hindrance put in their way but some will of course do extremely well in the French system, we cannot tar them all with the same brush.

You are being somewhat general about it all and if you read, not just this thread again but many other threads, some of us do indeed say that of course those who are willing to adapt to the system can come out well but that was not yet proved amongst the British children that have come here.

In the UK you learn to think for yourselves, I've seen it written many times. So why do most of you here want to buy a barn, renovate and run a gite in France as the TV told you to?

Now you are generalising about all the British who come here. Most of the people I know didn't do that at all and for those that did, I feel it shows more of an industrious nature and an ingenious strength of mind to tackle such a job.

Guess who are now finally cottoning on that maybe it's not such a bad idea to do the same ? bit late but, as they say, better late than never. You are sounding a little bitter, why ?

People who have had the experience are only posting as they see it and Cjb actually has a family that see it all quite clearly and from a French perspective.

 

[Tourangelle]

[quote]Well judging by the number of posts over the last 2 years by members with children that have often stated that as one of the reasons for coming here. When I have spoken with some of the Brits locally ...[/quote]

I just think, that as Cjb states there have been a lot of changes in education in the UK.  My surprise is not that people came here maybe 10 years ago hoping for better education, but that it should still be the case in 2005.  And as I said before, I wonder whether some children coming over now, having less than wonderful experiences, are not suffering though having changed system.  Those whose children are starting out in the French system, ormx for example, seem much more positive than those who have joined part of the way through

[Battypuss]

Moving house to be in a "better" cachement area for UK schools may be a possibility for some; it certainly was not for us! We had enough trouble scraping up the bus fare to go shopping. I would have had to move a bloody long way from where we were too...

On the whole, I am more satisfied with my daughters education here in France that I was with the options available to us in the UK. That said, there are several aspects that I dislike, but the children seem to be perfectly happy and generally speaking, do as well, if not better than their contemporaries. There's still plenty of time outside school to 'educate' them otherwise; I have always been a goat rather than a sheep and they appear to be following in my footsteps! So I suppose they have fallen into a sort of double education; one lot at home and one lot at school, but I can assure you they are never bored.

Lacking any after school clubs and not having any transport means that we have to make most of our own entertainment, not something I consider an overwhelming problem. Aged 10 and 11, (the eldest is now 20 and lives elsewhere in town), they frequently astound me with things I never knew they knew, if you see what I mean!

I received one of the best educations money could buy in England until 'O' level and loathed every second of it. Then I had a ball for a year in a Turkish College, was offered a scholarship (rejected) to Harvard and trotted off to work as a copywriter. My education didn't make a blind bit of difference to my ability, or lack of, to succeed at that. Obviously, some careers require specific educational training, but there are many others that do not. I applaud the French attitude towards apprenticeships - might as well learn from day one that, unless you are very lucky, the world is hard place to live in. Eldest daughter survived 2 years OK and is a trained chef. Sure, she moaned about the long hours, but was well warned in advance and told by her nasty mother to shut up and get on with it...

Second daughter wants to work with horses. Third one hasn't a clue yet!

[Cjb]

A) I didn't move here as a result of watching a programme about renovating an old ruin and setting up holiday homes.

B) Having a french wife spared me many of the administrative headaches and the culture shock that such people have to encounter.

C) I simply wouldn't have had the guts to get involved in such a venture. This is something that takes real initiative and courage and I am constantly amazed at how many people actually make a success of it.

I initially viewed France with misty eyes and wanted to denounce all things British in order to feel more integrated. 18 months on, I speak fluent french (spent 10 months at language school and passed both the DELF exams about a year ago) and have found that playing at being french isn't real life. I find that my french friends are interested in my point of view because I'm NOT french. They are interested in hearing an outsider's view of their country, and guess what, we are often in agreement!!

I have a great many friends with the BAC + 4 or 5 who have only been able to find jobs that pay the minimum wage. My wife was told that her BA (hons) in English from a UK university was only worth a little over two years of studying English in france, despite the fact that she already had the DEUG in English prior to switching to the UK.

It may be true that many British families are moving over to France, renovating properties and entering into the tourism industry, but they are greatly outnumbered by the french 20 or 30 somethings who are crossing the channel to earn a living in the S.E, London and Manchester. Surely an efficient education system would provide them with the prospect of work at the end of it??

I'm not one of the "Everything's better in the UK" brigade, it's just that as a teacher myself, I feel quite strongly on this matter. My inlaws were amazed when they discovered that I was working 60 hour weeks when I was teaching in England. The culture was one whereby the failure of a child was also the failure of the teacher. In France it appears that the teacher is never to blame. Perhaps this is not helped by the fact that it is not the headteacher who gets to pick his own staff.

Perhaps it's because I received an education that I feel compelled to offer an opinion on this matter, rather than simply viewing it as none of my business. I live legally in france, I pay taxes and I'm law abiding. This summer I'll be eligible for dual nationality. Je pense donc je suis!!

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

Cjd,from all education you have had you sound like you should of gone in to investment banking,like you say you came over to france the "easy" way and therefore cannot relate fully the difficulties in moving to france some people face.

Yours20/20 vision.

[Cjb]

"Yours 20/20 vision"

Another old wife's tale, hey??

As for having it easy, I've certainly had it easier than many others, but now that my daughter's on the scene the easy days are over. Thank goodness I don't have to do a real job during the day!!

[BJSLIV]

Surely the "fact" that so many young French people are moving to find work in the UK, far from being proof of the failure of the French education system in fact demonstrates its strengths.

If the system was that bad surely they would be so narrow minded that they wouldn't have any get up and go left in them. These inflexible products of the French system find it far easier to get work in England than do the relatively few young Brits coming to France.

Perhaps it is the French employment market that is at fault rather than the Education system.

 

[Cjb]

The french employment system actively discriminates against those coming from other countries seeking work in France. This is clearly demonstrated by the government's refusal to adhere to the EU anti-discrimination act, despite signing up to it.. Those french people that work in England are able to do so as their qualifications are recognised in Britain. It wouldn't matter if you're perfectly bilingual, obtaining work in France is subject to a narrow-minded view that French education is far superior to that of other countries.

[Pangur]

So, if nobody educated in France can get a good job and the French won't let foreigners work for them, who is doing all the work?

 

 

[chicfille]

The fonctionnaires of course!

[Cjb]

[quote]So, if nobody educated in France can get a good job and the French won't let foreigners work for them, who is doing all the work?[/quote]

The 5 million functionnaires and let's not forget the 3 million unemployed!!

[Russethouse]

I don't really think this is a question so much of good and bad, what I think is more concerning is that people moving to France with children may in some cases, have the mistaken belief that French school is pretty much like English but with more discipline, in fact in a lot of cases, just as they experienced when they were at school themselves.

From what I have read here, and from having a friend who is a French teacher (of French) I would suggest that many just don't realise the French way of educating comes from 'a different place' the whole ethos is different.

That's quite a big change for a child, especially one who may be struggling with the language, missing friends, family and possibly seeing their parents face new challenges. Some will take to it like ducks to water, others may never forgive you for 'ruining' their education.

Its a lot to think about and as TU has said recently forewarned is forearmed.

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

France might now be waking up from the dream that it matters not to be in the real world,without europe and the EU france would be bordering on a third world country with less influence than some third world countries.English not french is the worlds first language followed by spanish(china is in there somewhere)Germany now is what the UK was 20 years ago and unless france changes pretty quick it will be a basket case.Down here they speak spanish and french and I push my kids to learn a language that would be useful to them when they leave school(english or spanish)When the UK stops bank rolling the EU watch it crumble.Where else that matters do they speak french?anybody coming over to france should keep up the english with their kids and that will stand them in good stead for the future.We love france warts and all.ps why does the EU want to get its hands on the the UK pension funds?

[Sarnia]

You have all given me a lot to think about.  I worry that we will be disadvantaging my son (now aged 5) by moving to France - and the only reason we are not here now is that my two elder daughters will be finishing their schooling soon and if we "hang on" for a little longer they will be eligible for good "grants" to university.  But thinking about it logically, for our son, I want something a bit different than what we are used to in the Channel Islands.  I am tired of the sad Mummy Brigade which dominates the school he attends.  Mummies who lunch, do yoga and have private fitness lessons, who send the Au Pair to pick little Johnnie up - most (mummies and daddies) look like the ubiqitous "chavs" you hear about in the UK; all Burberry and bling.  The alternative is to place your child in a secondary school where the teacher is merely a crowd controller, and where the most you can hope for in terms of a job is "something in the finance sector".  Big deal.  We actually want a bit more than this for our boy.  I hope he does well at school naturally, but there is more to life than a school education surely?  How many "high-flyers" do you know who have the personality of a cabbage leaf?  Education is all about a rounded experience, both in school and at home.  I don't care if he dosen't get art lessons or rugby after school - that's what father's are for!  I hope he gets a decent job, perhaps he will attend university, perhaps not - but that is not the be all and end all of life is it. The trouble with a lot of the English people I know is that they expect everything on a plate - and that goes for the whole French experience not just education.   Having had two bereavements within the last year of two very very close family members - I realise that you must live your dream today, and not put off things because you might not make it, or your child may not (by attending a French school) become the next PM or whatever you hope he/she will become.  In short, a French education seems to me (by talking to teachers and parents both in France and the UK) no better but certainly no worse than the UK - and that is good enough for me and mine.

[Mistral]

the French way of educating comes from 'a different place' the whole ethos is different.
Gay, how true that is. After 13 years in the system, I still find myself confused at times because my "gut reactions" and expectations aren't the same as my colleagues.

[Russethouse]

Mistral, my other 'pet' theory is that many French people have a different sense of 'self' too, but I find this rather hard to explain......and perhaps the people I have met have not been typical.

[Teamedup]

Sarnia, art and sport, are they really extra curricular, they are in the program after all.

There may be a name for it now, chav's is so funny, but vulgar, tasteless people wth more money than sense have always existed and always will. We can take them as we will. Granted if you go cheap here, you may not find this phenomenon in peasant land, although I'm not quite sure of that either. We have a friends and they have always been chav's.

Things have been said about kids futures, future manual workers are looked down upon in main stream education. Whatever is said about the 'good' apprentice system here, once a child hits college and shows signs of not being academic, then most teachers will give up on them and treat them as fair game, not to encourage in any way, but to make sure that the kid knows where their place in society is, and not being academic is some sort of lower order. The class system here is incidious.

That sounds horrible doesn't it. Shocked me. And not being academic doesn't necessarily mean not being bright enough, there is the fitting into the rigors of the system that counts too and if one doesn't, then one cannot expect to flourish within the system.

And kids being happy at school....... that is quite another thing. My son always made good friends at school, he went to many different schools and made friends in them all and still has many of them. Apart from the lessons he was always happy to go to school.

Sadly though, in spite of being talented in sport and art, both subjects where I had hoped that he would get a few extra marks, often ended up with very low marks too. His oeuvres d'art were often marked 'hors sujet' and he would get zero.

I know I have said forewarned is forearmed. And I know some kids will do well here, there will always be a percentage that do.

Which has reminded me, there is some research by a Dr Yayaoui(sp) about educational failure by children from immigrant families. There is/was also an association in Grenoble called La Bouture a group of educational professionals concerned about educational failure, college/lycee level.

[Sprogster]

Sarnia,

You just cannot draw the same comparisons between education in the Channel Islands and France, as comparing the UK to France. Although,schools in Jersey and Guernsey follow the English examination system and curriculum, the schools and educational system are structured differently. More like the old English selective system. With additional grant maintained and private schools, that charge fees at a small fraction of what one would pay in the UK private sector. (The Channel Islands after all are not part of the UK.)

Furthermore, there is one further major difference, in that the levels of government funding of schools in Jersey and Guernsey are much higher than the UK.

In fact, most schools in Jersey and Guernsey would be perceived as utopian by UK parents, with smaller class sizes, very high equipment levels and facilities second to none.

All this results in school leavers in the Channel Islands averaging much higher levels of examination success, than the UK national average. In addition a far greater percentage of pupils stay in education until they are eighteen, than in the the UK.

I am told by teacher friends that school discipline in C.I schools, compares to UK schools thirty years ago, as you just don't get the classroom disruption problems you read about elsewhere. Because of the relative local prosperity, full employment and tight population control, you do not have the same range of social issues, found in the UK.

You would be very lucky to find free schooling of the standard you get in the Channel Islands, elsewhere.

Although, not an indigenous Channel Islander, I realise that I have been extremely fortunate to be able to educate my children in the C.I, compared to other family members experiences in the UK.

If the biggest annoyance you have is other mothers turning up in their latest 4x4 and going off to the gym after dropping off little Johnny, believe me you are much more fortunate than you think you are!

 

 

[Ormx]

Oh the yummy mummies, now that's another thread!