daughter/schools

[Russethouse]

There are few members of the forum who have experience of French secondary school education, Val 2, TU and Miki as well as Battypus, come to mind. They post their experience - what else are they to do ? Go with the glib " and the children are settling in well" so beloved of TV producers ?

Some people have posted about extra French lessons, but from what I have read here these seem to be the exception rather than the rule and they are by no means offered automatically in every department.

Often, it is not really what people already on the road to a move really want to hear, but better surely to be prepared and possibly have 'Plan B' than to have overly high expectations and be disappointed.

The original poster did not give much in the way of detail, the reason for the move, the location, rural or town, siblings etc. All could have a bearing on the outcome.

Battypus, didn't your post really prove that you did well enough at International School to go on to further qualifications - and if it wasn't for your accident you would have been able to follow a reasonably well paid profession ?

Frankly, in my experience, hell hath no fury like an unhappy teenager - Good Luck !

[Tourangelle]

I'd like to try and shed some light on the extra French lessons being the exception and not the rule. One of the differences that is practically never mentioned on these forums in terms of education is that schools and headteachers in France have much, much less power to regulate their own affairs that those in Britain do.

Therefore, having or not having extra French lessons for new arrivals may not be an option that the individual school has control over. (I mean college and lycee, I don't know about école primaire). It is more likely to be decided by the rectorat (the local education authority). There are some FLE (French as a foreign language) teachers in French schools, but obviously not all. A child arriving in a town with limited knowledge of French will be directed towards a school with a FLE facility. Some even have whole classes for new arrivals. There are structures, they do exist, but obviously to deal with the majority. The majority of chldren arriving in France come from North Africa, Turkey, or Eastern Europe, and go to live in cities rather than the deepest depths of rural Limosin. So that is where the resources are directed and so the British child arriving to live in the country, with probably only one real option when it comes to schools, and with a bus ride at that, is probably going to miss out.

The other way the child could have extra lessons is if there are hours of soutien, support classes available. These could be in maths, English, or French, it is much more at the discretion of the head teacher. Basically the child will have extra classes in small groups, so a British child arriving could benefit from this.

So as I understand it, it is a bit the luck of the draw, and the structure available caters for the majority.

[benson]

Well well well we do seem to have opened a can of worms here don't we!!  I hope this doesn't put the original 'newbie' poster off to much but this is a discussion forum after all.

I tend to both agree and disagree with some points raised in all the posts.  People are just giving personal experiences which is the best information one can have  and everyone's experinces are different to a certain degree and it is best to see both sides of the coin so to speak.

 

We live in Dept 23 my 2 eldest children are both in Primaire and when we first arrived they were in different schools due to the age range. Both children received extra French lessons within the schools although the teacher was brought in from the local college.  We didn't have to pay bus fares.  They attended these schools for 6 months then we moved to another part of 23.  Now they both attend the same school.  For the first 4 months my eldest child and the other 2 english children at the school were offered extra French lessons at the local college twice a week where children of all ages needing extra lessons were taught. Parents had to take and collect.  After that it was decided that the lessons were no longer needed for my child (as she had already had 6 months worth of extra lessons in her other school) and so the teacher from college came to the school once a week to continue teaching the other children.  This teacher also covered the extra french lessons in many other primaires in this area.  My younger child does not receive any extra lessons as he is to young and they say will be fine on his own.  We do not pay for buses here for primaire either but you have to pay for the bus to college.

All of the parents i know with children of school age in 23 have had very similar experiences in fact not 1 of their children in any of the different schools attended has gone without extra french lessons.

i am by no means saying all schools provide this service just the ones that I have had direct or indirect dealings with.  I'm sure there are people in 23 who will now reply with totaly different experiences.

 

 

[Battypuss]

I don't wish to give the impression that either I, nor any of my three children got it easy here in France. I changed their schools and I threw their 'father' out (which gave me enormous pleasure); I have been rich and poor over the last 46 years. Currently poor, possibly not from lack of ability but rather impossibility. I flogged the mink coat and we're living off the proceeds...

 

Joking apart, don't stamp on peoples' dreams. The only way you will find out is to do it. Teenagers will be the same wherever they live, more or less, and here in France at least

 

At least here can let them out of your sight without an armed guard.

 

Thank you to the non-depressive poster. I'm glad I am not the only one.

[Miki]

".....Joking apart, don't stamp on peoples' dreams. The only way you will find out is to do it. Teenagers will be the same wherever they live, more or less, and here in France at least here you can let them out of your sight without an armed guard..."

Two things Battypuss.

No one I know on here, intentionally stamps on people dreams. A question gets asked and one or several people reply to it as they see it and how they have "lived" it.

The simple answer would be to say, don't ask a question if you only want the answer to come back, the way you would like it to. Personally and, many of us have said it over the years, would have been how glad we would have been to have a forum to tell us the pros and cons of comimg to live in France and not just "how warm the water is, so please come in and join us" What real use is that, honestly ?

Secondly, it is way too general to state things like "you can let them out of your sight without an armed guard..."

All over France you will see posters in shops etc asking if you have seen some poor child who has disappeared. Last week an 8 year old child was killed in our local village by a coach going through the tight roads around the centre. We hear of many accidents involving kids and as I say, there are no doubt, many people to be wary of here, so I cannot entirely go with letting younger kids out without due care. You personally may feel all is well in your close proximity but it is far too general to say that for France.

[Russethouse]

>>Joking apart, don't stamp on peoples' dreams. The only way you will find out is to do it. Teenagers will be the same wherever they live, more or less, and here in France at least<<

But its the parents dream - it doesn't sound as if its the teenagers!

This topic is always going to be hotly debated, as other posters have said there are two sides to the coin. Hopefully the person who asked the original question will be able to see both sides and find the best solution or way forward for them and their daughter.

[AnnH]

Saligo Bay may not have liked my comment but I am sorry to say that if you read through many of the different threads, on different subjects you can almost quarantee if there is a reply from a particular person (I am not pointing the finger at anyone in particular) then that reply will be in the negative.  I know people are only passing on their experiences, as I am, but I try to point out the good points as well as the bad points.  I think it important that people go into the move with their eyes open, but life itself is a challenge unless you are lucky enough to be rich and not have to worry about the monetary consequences of your actions.

Any move should be a family decision and should be right for your family and only you can decide that.

I know my children,  and thought I new how they would react to the move, I am lucky they are both bright and outgoing. The reality of the move was that they are perfoming somewhere between my original expectations and those prophesised by many on this forum.  The pendulum could have swung either way but as I said in my previous post family support is paramount.

 

Life is what you make it whether you live here in France or elsewhere.  Every country has is red tape and rules etc and you have to work your life around them.

 

As a final note about extra lessons, before I left the UK I work as an administrator in a junior school, we had a young polish boy start in the school, he, nor his parents, could not speak English, the education authority said that they had spent all that years money allocated to providing additional language lessons and it was left to our school to do the best we could.  So much for having more control over your budget,its just not true.

[Battypuss]

I look after all 3 kids all the time, I spy on them if they're in town, I am a really neurotic Mother sometimes. But I am not too scared about sending them the road to the local shop here, about 200yds without a police escort. I would NOT have done this either in London or in Kent, where we lived previously; eldest daughter wasn't even allowed to cross the road.

 

I was not the original poster .

 

Very sad to say and I wish it was different, but there are weird people out there in any and every country who prey on the innocents among us, be they children or otherwise. My heart goes out to their victims and I sincerely hope the powers that be catch those responsible and hang them high.

But, and it's a big BUT, I feel my kids have more freedom here. I hope to God I am not proved wrong.They do not run loose all over the place and have to check in regularly, or I call the cops.

 

I have just asked both of the two here and they fully understand what I am saying, and ask you lot to understand that THEY understand too.

Call the Moderators and get me banned if you wish.

[Miki]

Yes but you spoke about France in general last time, whereas you can only truly speak about your immediate area, isn't that so ?

BP said "....But, and it's a big BUT, I feel my kids have more freedom here.."

Fair enough but can you now see how you have moved the goal posts somewhat and your point now is certainly more valid.

BP said "...I hope to God I am not proved wrong.They do not run loose all over the place and have to check in regularly, or I call the cops..."

My post was not to try and frighten anyone, just to say that France has its share of the problems we parents worry about.

BP said "....Call the Moderators and get me banned if you wish..."

Now come on, why would anyone want to even think about doing that ? You are fully entitled to your views without any threats of someone asking the moderators to ban you, any way, what possible reason would they give the Mods to have you banished from the forum?

[cary]

I joined the forum before we made the final big move here to 22 and was quite often left in quite a big state of panic from some of the postings on the education topic.  Our children are 4, 7 and 10 so they aren't even being thrown into college yet and will have a few years to adjust and make friends etc, but even so i was nearly put off and thought i was going to ruin their lives, but our house sale had gone through and here we are 4 months later.  Yep still early days i hear you say but we have a lovely house with land off any roads in the middle of nowhere, we can leave our front door open for the kids to go in and out as they please, they spend more time out in the fresh air than stuck in on the playstation all day and they love it here.  They are settled at school and have loads of new french friends who often come for a sleep over.  Fingers crossed things will remain pleasant and happy.  Good luck to anyone making that move for that better way of life.  Only we can make that life better.

[Teamedup]

I wouldn't want you banned Battypuss. It would not be right if anyone even complained and suggested such a thing.

 But my how we disagree, I firmly believe I reduced my kids choices by them being here.

Once they have a chosen path, and I believe that we both have kids in the catering trade, how hard it is if they want to change jobs or study again. Maybe changing jobs would be easier, but restarting studies here. No, it is a very rare person who does it. Whereas it is quite normal in the UK. And that is just taking  examples of my entourages in both countries.

[neil&kay]

Thanks for the feedback. We are both broad shouldered and can cope with positive and negative response, even if some replies are critical! Our daughter is receiving intensive french tuition from an approved french national in the hope that this will assist. We know that despite tuition it will still be difficult and so we are also considering the international school in Toulouse. Before anyone responds we are not wealthy but we are committed. to ensuring she is happy and content. Prehaps our opening remarks gave the impression our daughter was desperately unhappy about our plans, this is not the case. We also take on board remarks about international schools. We would particularly welcome feedback from anyone with experience of this international school or french schools in the Gallic area.

Neil/kay

[thelimetree]

Hi

We came to France to live last summer, my daughters are 14 and 17 years old.  They have been great and just got on with school life.  They now speak good French and are above average in their year group, doesn't say much for the French kids.  It was a bit tough in the winter somedays getting them off to school, as we had lived 7 years in Dubai, they didn't like the dark and cold mornings.  Don't be put off by some of the other replies, most of them aren't speaking from experience. One thing my daughter says, in a non horrible way, you need to quite bright as it is much easier to pick up.

Good luck,

Sarah

[SaligoBay]

Sarah, I think that most of those who replied ARE speaking from experience! 

Why do people who are lucky/successful not like hearing of the experiences of those less so?  It's all just real life, non?   France is remarkably like Real Life - some very good bits, some very bad bits, and in the middle a load of everyday ordinariness. 

And à propos of absolutely nothing, isn't it amazing how everyone has "bright" children?  Someone on another forum even mentioned their "bright" dog.  I suppose it's like that 70% of people who believe they're a better-than-average driver.     

[Ormx]

Well I'm not going to say anything. Last time I tried to say something positive about education I was accused of being very Front National.

The negatives always win on the education question as they spend the most time posting.

 

Oops, did I just say something?

[hoverfrog]

I think there's a lot of realism been posted here - as well as personal experiences good and bad that probably apply just to the circumstances of the poster. My 13 yr-old is still a difficult teenager in France - just the same as in England! She is, however, doing well at school - although she did have to go into the previous year when she started as she was not prepared to cooperate with the 'test' they gave her to see which year to put her in (see 'difficult teenager'). There are extra french lessons at school - in school time and free - which she attends. On balance, she is happier here - and a lot nicer to live with! She even freely admits to being happier here which is quite something! We didn't have the luxury of chosing when to move, but then if we were to chose to have children only when we could afford to then most kids wouldn't be here at all

Whoever said it's down to the individual is right - when faced with the same circumstances some people will sink and others swim. My father was 13 when he moved from England to Belgium without speaking any french and within a year was the top of the class. I'm not expecting my daughter to do the same, but now at the very least I think she will cope - and be happy doing it. Two months ago I was reading this forum for grains of hope to say she wouldn't sink. I may sound a bit flippant if I say "suck it and see", but then you never know if you don't try

[SaligoBay]

[quote]Well I'm not going to say anything. Last time I tried to say something positive about education I was accused of being very Front National. The negatives always win on the education question as they...[/quote]

I was accused of being very Front National.

Well, if you will say that "foreigners" don't have a right to comment.......

[Richardbk]

The negatives always win on the education question as they spend the most time posting

I think you will find that the 'negatives' of which I am one have been in France the longest and have the most experience of the system We have three kids who have lived all their lives in France ,2 of which have always been at the top or close to the top of the class. However this in no way makes up for the 3rd who has always been below average and has spent most of her education in various schools being ridiculed and constantly put down by her teachers. It has improved a lot in the latest private school - but the problem is the system has insufficient flexibility and an obsession with individual academic achievement(little team, project working etc) + sheer laziness on the part of the teachers to really help. Those that are towards the bottom of the class are left behind and forgotton in the system. Hence the  appalling education results and the current national debate.

Like SB I am equally amazed at the number of above average kids there seems to be on the forum that arrive in France and sail to the top of their class. Maybe the UK system is actually educating them to  a better standard than their French counterparts after all.

regs
Richard

 

 

[missmonkey]

hey all,  I am moving over in around 2 months to the paris region with a 14 year old son and and 11 year old daugther.  This will be a HUGE change for the kids but I don't think we should under-estimate our kids ability to Adapt.  We moved to Ireland from Canada 3 years ago and none of us are happy here, the Irish school system is... in a word.... crap.   I was offered a position in France with my current employer who is closing the Dublin office, it was an offer I couldn't refuse (so to speak) I will be getting enough money so that 50% of my take home pay will not have to go to rent and making a jump in my career that would take at least 10 years to achieve here in Ireland, so wether the kids like it or not ... we are going, as the sole income earner sometimes we have to take decisions wether they are popular or not.  now all that said, my kids are excited for the move and happy to go, we will be starting with some french lessons here until we leave, I speak french and as a matter of fact, I only learned french when I was 21 and moved to montreal, its not impossible.

I have spoken to a school in Rueil and they seemed to have a decent emmersion program, I refuse to send my kids to private school  for a few reasons, the cost is extortionary, the attitude I got when I rang the them was ridiculous "well we already have a few good candidates so unles less your children are exceptional..." blah blah blah, whereas the french public school was explaining to me how the integration worked and how much success they've had etc....

[sikhim]

Hi missmonkey, just wanted to let you know a problem we came across when we moved from Ireland to France last summer with our 14 year old son.

 

As you know in Ireland children spend more time in primary schoold and less time in secondary school, with the result that our son had only attended secondary school for one year before coming to France where he found himself in troisieme in the college.

 

Due to this, he has missed out a lot on topics covered in maths and physics/chemistry and biology.  For example, he had not covered the Theoreme de Pythagore, which is taught in third year in secondary schools in Ireland and in France.

 

Our son was put in troisieme in the anglophone section of an international (state) school here in Lyon, and I now realise it was a mistake as he should have been put in quatrieme. I realised the problem too late and now he has to re-take troisieme and is not happy about it but he would not be able to copein seconde. I am spending a fortune in private tuition to bring him up to the level he needs to continue his education here.

 

I am sure there are schools with international sections in Paris and you might have a look at them. It was very easy to get into the one in Lyon, I don't now what the situation is in Paris.

 

We lived in Ireland for nearly thirty years and always read reports that the Irish education system was one of the best in the world..... I don't think it's crap but I don't think it's that good either. It can depend on which school you go to.

 

best of luck with your move

 

Dominique

 

 

 

[Deby]

I was offered a position in France with my current employer who is closing the Dublin office, it was an offer I couldn't refuse (so to speak) I will be getting enough money so that 50% of my take home pay will not have to go to rent and making a jump in my career that would take at least 10 years to achieve here in Ireland, so wether the kids like it or not ... we are going.

This statement implies that you have given little thought to your children's education and are only focussed on the economic factors that control your family.  I know I am being rather blunt, but your statement appears to be too.  Really, do think  again and look at International schools as this may well suit your children and cater for their needs.  International schools cater quite well for children who have travelled a bit and experienced other cultures.  Yes, children do adapt but sometimes a long term view of what impact this has on children and their education may need to be higher up in the priority list.  Sometimes we cannot see this.  I really do not wish to antagonise you, your children may settle they may not, but do you wish to take such a risk?

Deby

[Joanne]

We moved to France last November with 3 daughters aged (at the time) 13, 10 & 9.  I think the 13 year old (now 14 born in 91) was the most nervous as the younger 2 are in a class together at the local school.  She attends a private college and generally has settled in very well.  Her french is now far better than her sisters but it has been a "sink or swim" situation.  Although most of the teachers were very nice to her and she was allowed to sit next to an English girl for the first couple of months (to translate) she was given a lot of hard homework from the first day and expected to sit examinations along with her french classmates.  A couple of the teachers have been very hard on her and continue to scream and shout until she is in tears, I think because she attended a rough senior school in the UK she is used to teachers losing their cool a fair bit.  She doesn't need any prompting to do her homework and she is happy to get up in the morning and go to school and always comes home in a good mood (none of which was usual in the UK)

For us at the moment I would say the move has been easier than I expected for the children, but I can see how easily it might not have worked out (if that makes sense).  If she had more teachers that were very hard on her or if there were no english girls her age etc etc.

Also because there were so many problems in her last school in the UK ( a girl in her year headbutted the headteacher and kicked him in the unmentionables just beacuse she wanted to get past!!) we know had we left her in that school her studies would have continued to suffer.

What I'm really trying to say is because each child has different circumstances its very hard to predict if they will cope or not.  Anyway I hope it all works out for you.

[Teamedup]

Joanne, Which class is your daughter born in 1991 in. In theory she should be in 4eme, is she?

[missmonkey]

Economic factors are important when you are raising a family, in ireland we struggle, there is never enough money to get from one month to the next I am constantly denying the kids extra curricular activities (as they are extremely expensive here) and therefor none of us are happy, so yes I am primarily looking at the economic factors. Money can't buy happiness but it makes it a lot easier to be happy when you can say Karate lessons no problem!, or have beans on toast by choice. 

We haver only been in Ireland 3 years and have only moved to dublin a year ago, my kids hate it here as do I.  They were born in Montreal and go to Quebec in the summers so they are not as un-accustomed to French Culture as perhaps others who haven't had the benefit of those experiences.  I speak french fluently, as does their dad, who is coming over to stay with us for a few months to help them adjust and get used to paris while I settle into the new job, so no doubt that will go a long way in helping with the homework and assisting in integration.  I have put a LOT of thought into this move.

I have to say that I am really disappointed with the overwhelming amount of negativity on this board.  I realize that this may be indicative of the difficulty of integrating into a foreign culture and language but surely there most be some people out there with positve experiences.

I have looked into the international schools here, and they are very difficult to get into, there is only 2 places available for my son's year and as they said to me on the phone "we already have some very good candidates".  It doesn't bother me, we are not really private school type people.... besides i am not into paying 6K per kid for the priveledge, education is a right as far as I'm concerned.  My son is well aware that he may have to repeat a year and is not bothered, he has had a crap time at school here and the past 2 years have been completely un-productive.

 

[SaligoBay]

he has had a crap time at school here and the past 2 years have been completely un-productive.

So it's okay to say that about Ireland, but if someone says it about their experience in France it's "negative"?