Home education

[Teamedup]

It has been mentioned recently and unless I have misunderstood completely, parents can bring their children to France and home school in absolutely any system they want.

I simply didn't think that the system was that flexible and that there were controls to check to see if the child was learning to proper standards. Are there controls and how can they tell, if, for example children are in the dutch home learning system?

Also the idea of bringing a child to a foreign country and home schooling sounds bizarre to me. How do they learn their french. How and where do they make friends as they are isolated from their peer group? I know that there are say associations/activities that can be joined but this is has it's own restrictions of mixing exclusively with those with the same interests. Whereas at school one is obliged to mix with people from all walks of life.

Simply where is the normal social intercourse?

 

 

 

 

[Val_2]

I will admit that I know absolutely NOTHING about home schooling and looking at it from this particular view, I too wondered how foreign kids coming into France to live and learn would ever make friends and learn decent french if they don't spend their education  in a normal establishment.If the parents are doing the teaching and speak no french they have lost out completely and I have never heard of anyone round here doing home schooling,most parents have to work to survive here in France these days and that means someone taking care of and feeding the children whilst they do that. What about all the school trips the kids go on especially in collège,you cannot tell me someone is going to take responsability for half a dozen kids at the most on a foreign trip or go skiing,sailing and swimming like ours have done. I do know there are strict controls here on the education system and inspectors regularly visit establishments to check the teachers are doing their jobs correctly as we get to hear about it at council and even if you have just one slightly handicapped child here in the state schools,a special needs assistant has to be employed as well usually one per 2 children. I can only say from having two children who have spent ten years already in the french state system that they would certainly not thrived as well if I had kept them at home and taught them myself plus the social side for the parents too has been wonderful and we have made many friends - you don't get that from home education.

[opas]

I for one would not even contemplate home schooling, I can offer help with their homework and even then sometimes have to give up and call on a neighbour/other same class parent for further advice(have even done this recently to a forum member when I wanted advice on english grammar!)

When we were traveling about on our boat, (before the children were even a twinkle) we met an english family who were working their way to America, Mum was doing a home tutor correspondence course with their 2 girls, aged roughly 7 and 9 years. She did 3 hours of tuition with them early morning......she used to appear like she had just finished a 12 hour night shift!

She admited it was harder than she had envisaged, though she had a tutor at the end of a phone line.

I more or less raised the point that TU is making about integration on the forum recently ,the thread being eventually deleted(not as a direct result of my comments) and agre entirely that the only way to learn a language is to use it, OK the kids may well go out to play when school is finished ,but I also think the local children will think the home tutored one is a bit `strange`...even if they are not.

Mrs O

[alwen]

I'm not sure if you are refering to my message where I am looking at all forms of education including home education but I felt I needed to explain that my son has a terminal illness  and has already missed a lot of school he loves France and already has extra lessons in French and we would very much want to be part of the community but his needs are very different to a child that is healthy and I feel I need to explore all possibilites I honestly don't think that it is a bad thing to be taught at home there are good and bad points for home education as there is by taking the normal route of education I think it is up to the individual

[Teamedup]

Hi Alwen, I realised that your case was specific and I can imagine that in such circumstances you could have problems getting your child into main stream education in France, well as you would want to, at least.

Home education has been mentioned quite a few times recently. To simplify it goes, (with variations), I'm planning on bringing my child/children to France and am continuing with the courses that they are already doing, but at home or transferring the home ed to France. Rather than using the CNED which is the french correspondence course which is not necessarily being taken as an option.

Hence my question.

We had considered using the CNED when things got really bad for my son, and for all our doctor would have signed for him to take on home schooling, everyone I spoke to about it tried to dissuade us including our doctor. Then we found the CNED unhelpful, so didn't go ahead.

 

It is the lack (?) of social intercourse that I find odd.  There has to be an aspect of isolating a child if the child is home schooled. The child is not experiencing community living. Add to that moving to a foreign country and I just can't get my head around doing that.

[bigjimbishop]

The socialization/ social interaction arguement is always the first thrown at home educators.

The whole point is that parents don't want the type of socialization/education that school offers.

Home Educators very rarely work in isolation but go to great lengths to offer the best that people "thinking outside the box" can via networking kids and adults of all ages to facilitate the children persuing their passions freely and therefore motivating core-skill learning on avaerage 8 time faster than any state school system.

There are 90,000!!!! home ed kids in the UK. I know 20 or so of all ages and they all have several things in common, Self-confidence, motivation, excellent social skills and maturity on avaerage far beyond their school peers.

School ain't what it used to be.

I don't believe in National Curriculums and when I did school most teachers loved their jobs. I'm not sure they have the time to enjoy teaching anymore.

As for educating in France, well it's up to us to make sure we network with French and Dutch Home educators. People who leave their native country usually do so to find a better life out of the old system, why bother getting into a similar system?

I love France and the French, so my boy is surrounded with french friends all the time but I understand from many french friends that the system here is old and fails a high percentage of kids.

Community living is exactly what home ed is all about. School is not community living, it's a place kids go when they are not in the community, family, friends.

The French authorities are concerned the cults and sects do not spring up willy-nilly which is fair enough but they still believe a certain flexibility in education is acceptable

Oh well I've had this conversation with so many people but until you meet home ed kids it's pointless trying to persuade anyone.

I don't feel I'm being selfish in wanting to bring my child up.

I'm just not scared of the "System" which tells us how to live

Some links for you

English Home Ed person in 63 Auvernes

[email protected] .

georgia, issoire 63

.....and another

http://www.freedom-in-education.co.uk/home%20ed/home_ed_france.htm

......and the UK gang

http://www.education-otherwise.org/

....and the french system

http://www.cned.fr/

...and another alternative

http://www.epceducation.com/

http://membres.lycos.fr/possible/art21ab.html

....and some resources

http://www.playbac.fr/e.php?lsd=6&cc=2&tc=11

This is the website of the french/dutch hippies near Auxerre

http://www.eco-bio.info/accueil.html

[SaligoBay]

I've been a parent for 10 years now, 5 in UK and 5 in France.

I know nobody in France who is home-educating. 

I did know people in England who opted for home-educating, but they didn't inspire me to follow them.   Middle-class, vegetarian, carob-eating, to a man.    It all seems a bit precious.  I understand the why-follow-the-herd arguments and all that, but in the end we're all human, and home-schooling doesn't make anyone any better or open-minded.  In fact, I think it makes them feel just a bit superior, which they're not.   Just as likely to be hit by lightning or blown up by terrorists as the rest of us.

[bigjimbishop]

Well SaligoBay if school works for you and yours then that's grand.

Also if you are living in france then I assume you are middle class if you still truly follow a class belief system

I'm not a vegetarian and I hate carob.

I work so I must be working class, I'm educated so I must be middle class and I drink good champagne so I must be Aristocratic.

The fact is we live a very modest life more on wits than Euros and we are happy (the champagne is actually cremment and is dirt cheap).

I'm not interested in scoring points over schooled children but education has taken a wrong turn in my humble opinion.

Home educators face so much criticism but turn out well adjusted kids. Find me an example to the contrary.

If you want to meet some French home ed folk then see the links in my previous mail.

[Teamedup]

Before we decided to not go with home education we had quite a period with our lad at home and we were schooling him.

I can only say how it was for us. Awful actually. He was dreadfully lonely. He was 15 at the time though and structuring his days were exceptionally hard. It is well documented on here as to my general opinion of french education, but for all it was hell each day he went to school, he would get up and go, bus left at 6.50, so leaving the house a good ten minutes earlier.

No school and getting him up was very very difficult. We tried to fill days with many things that would keep his interest, but once his school work was done, which never took that long, his disinterest was complete. The only thing he would wait for was that bus coming in from the local college to see his friends. And his disappointment terrible when we would go through the routine of him returning home, bitterly complaining that his friends had their devoir to do, which he knew would be the case. He would see them a little later, perhaps, then on Wednesdays and the weekends.

So I don't see where this, 'all their french friends' comes into a home schooled child's days. From maternelle in this village they start at 8.20 in the morning and leave at 4.30. That is the little ones. Later there is the devoir and activities which most children here at least seem to attend. School days during the week are not for socialising. Although the activities are open to one and all and these would be the places to get together with other kids, but ie music lessons are often just one to one, although solfege is in a group.

Maybe it is different elsewhere. Do the children all meet up everyday after school.

You see another reason why I've asked this question, I know that social intercourse with a child's peer group, here at least is limited, very limited in fact for someone who isn't at school. And I would go further and say that socialising  is practically 'by appointment only', but isn't that rather french anyway.

 

 

[bigjimbishop]

Ah yes Teamedup I can understand your experience with a 15 yr old especially if you are not in the type of community supportive of home ed.

I think you were brave to try and my sympathies to you for being stuck for choices. It's easier if they have a very limited experience of school to start with.

I'm very fortunate here as there are lots of kids in easy reach who my son plays with and although the major problem for me is the travelling I can work with a Laptop so we go visiting other educators and network on an almost daily basis, taking it in turns to do projects directed by the kids.

Home school is the wrong word for it as we are rarely at home

It's really not a soft option and definitely not ideal for every child.

[bigjimbishop]

I just remembered your original question

"Simply where is the normal social intercourse?"

That is the problem indeed. Is normal social intercourse at school where your 15 yr old was unhappy?

Whats normal?

For me 2 or 3 families hanging out doing stuff with the kids is normal )almost) daily interaction. Meeting new folk and having fun on a weekly basis is normal and finding new and exciting adventures for my boy is normal. But then I'm not normal, thank god and I guess this is apparent.

Viva Weirdos

[Teamedup]

I'll put it this way, no matter how miserable the teachers made my lad, he still wanted to go to school. He didn't care if he changed schools and he did (often) knowing he would have to make new friends, because he can do that bit easily.

 

Meeting new folk and having fun on a weekly basis is normal and finding new and exciting adventures for my boy is normal.

That is nothing to do with homeschooling that bit. We used to do that as a matter of course. I wanted my kids to benefit from/experience as much as possible. I had the pair of them off an all over the place. Even before we had the second car, if husband was at work we'd be off on the bus.

The daily interaction has me wondering. I'm lucky I didn't need to work, but most people have to and frankly most french families I know need to have both parents working. How do all these families make a living? In fact, parents need to be there to home school, so how does that work, or where do they work, if lots of people are doing it.

[bigjimbishop]

ask them

[Teamedup]

OK I will ask, which is the link to the best forum on home ed.

I just can't imagine where I could live where there would be a community of home learners. I live in a village, but it is a dormitory village like most of the villages around here and most people go off to work at local towns and cities. We know quite a few soixante huiters who are still very hippyish but they never considered home schooling. I met them all when my kids were at school. The most radical thing I ever did with them was a huge manif in Paris.

[bigjimbishop]

I think these people are best to get in touch with.

I have mailed them a few times but not met yet

http://www.eco-bio.info/

[email protected]

and any french links on the education otherwise site

There is not so much of a web presence for home educators here unlike in UK.

I guess you have to choose a lifestyle and location with education as top priority.

I've been lucky here as most of my new pals are into it but they are spread up to 45km apart creating some interesting logistical problems.

As far as work is concerned I am a composer and can work anytime, anywhere and most of my pals have a partner at home or work irregularly/job-share but generally do just enough to get by and spend lots of time with the kids.

Because Home ed does not fit with 9 to 5 jobs one has to ask if 9 to 5 makes you happy and do something different like selling up and moving to France mortgage free. But I guess you did this already.

My old UK life cost me 2000 Euro/month, now it's 500 Euro/month maximum and quality of life is up 1000%.

The french in my area are quite different it seems from other peoples experiences on this forum.

I was vainly hoping for a quiet life when I moved here it being one of the least populated regions but it's party central!

I love it and all the opportunities for sustainable living in energy, food and education.

So if you want to do it then find the people and make it happen.

Good luck

[SaligoBay]

Bigjimbishop, thank you for your somewhat disingenuous reply.  No class in France - mon oeil!

I hope you're teaching your children better manners than you yourself have, scorning people based on your childish assumption that they're middle class.

 

[bigjimbishop]

I don't believe in class, it's just not interesting.

It's just another form racial or social or financial or educational or industrial xenophobia.

I feel you were scorning me as you brought up class and your opinions about those who do home educate.

I fear it was your previous reply that lacked manners and where did I say there was no "class" in France?

I'm just not personally buying into it.

Lets talk about education not class.

My apologies if I have offended you.

[Dick Smith]

"I don't believe in class, it's just not interesting."

That's like not believing in rain. I think you are denying something.

Or do you mean that you don't want to consider it important? You should know that, after personal ability and month of birth, the most important factor for variation in educational performance is social class, which we refer to as a euphemism for advantage/disadvantage.

I suppose to admit it would weaken your argument, as the social class of the parent seems closely linked to home schooling - certainly in my experience (which goes back over 30 years). Working-class parents aren't in this for a variety of reasons.

I must also say that in the cases of home schooling that I have met the degree of denial (of the obvious in many cases) and the naming of things otherwise to avoid admitting difficulties has been very high.

[bigjimbishop]

In leicester last year before I moved to france there was a vibrant group of home educators from all "walks of life", about 20 families.

Some were loaded, some were posh, some were unemployed and some were travellers and few were "middle class".

It's just not a class issue.

Maybe I just feel that the term Class has negative conotations and no doubt you could say that is my middle class distress.

But why get into it?

People of all social strata sell up and move here for a better life, this being the common aspiration. Class does not matter.

People educate their kids privately from old "working class" families if and when they can afford it same for middle class and upper.

Aspirations are not necessarily class based.

Also are we making clear the distinctions between catagories of percieved class. In marketing we, the public are reduced to 9 catagories according to earnings and this supposedly shows own consumer habits accurately.

It's just a different issue. I may have been flippant about finding class uninteresting but to be honest I had not thought about class since moving to France. It's a much more British pasttime perhaps?

I'd would be interested to hear your definition of the social classes and how they have changed in perception and reality over your 30 years of experience.

Also the definition of advantage/disadvantage in society is that financial, intellectual or what?

I'm bright but financially poor so what class am I?

Great discussion and complex stuff you've brought up.....

[Dick Smith]

The reason you get into social class, Jim, is that it is such a massive disadvantaging factor for so many citizens. It is inextricably linked to racism and issues of ethnic minority under achievement. To ignore it is to leave all of those disadvantaged to go hang.

I'm sorry but I can't have much respect for that position. Show me working-class black home-educators and I'll start to listen.

Class matters.

As for 'how it has changed' - it hasn't. To believe it has is a middle class mind sop. And you didn't say it was dull, you said you didn't believe in it...

Perhaps I am a bit biased or even angry about this because I spent my life trying to help a wide range of children, not just my own. Disadvantage isn't a joke, and you may not be rich but I reckon you weren't brought up in poverty or on a council estate.

As for bright - well, if you are happy with that description, fine.

[bigjimbishop]

I quite agree that burying my head in the sand does not make poverty go away and ethnic disadvantage is horrendous.
i respect the work you've devoted your life to but it's not the only way to tackle the problem which I feel has some roots in global capitalism which I feel very strongly about and am trying to live my life and build a community which actively debunks and moves away from supporting the organizations that keep 2/3 of the world poor.

"Show me working-class black home-educators and I'll start to listen."

My last address in UK for 6 years was not a nice white middle-calss leafy suburb but one of the 10th poorest wards in the UK. At no.12 is a womens refuge and no.8 had 4 Somali families squashed in for too much rent. I'm not boasting about it as I was not particularly active in combatting and it all felt a bit hopeless but I was a part of the community and yes I can show examples of Somali, Punjabi and other ethnic refugee families who home educate.

I believe social class has changed and not for the better, but there are different ways to discribe it now and working class is not meaningful anymore as you pointed out it's the disadvantaged class that suffer. We got into this because someones previous post generalized home educators as middle-class and as usual inaccurate generalizations cause arguements.

One of the reasons I'm here is to learn more about ways to get out of the grips of the Capitalists who make us all poorer to differing degrees. We are holding a gathering in september to exchange information and ideas about energy production and cooperative living with the help of my pal Sam who builds self sustaining schools in vietnam. This is not a navel-gazing exercise as the idea is to share everything openly with all people so individuals benefit before corperations.
I do truely respect people like you who work directly with the worst affected but I'm not so skilled in that area. I'm an engineer by training so I must use my skills appropriately. I could not do this in Leicester and grabbed the chance to get out.
Now I have the space and resources to make a difference however small. I hope I live up to standards set by people like you and use my advantages to the good of others.

[Dick Smith]

Jim - I'm not looking for a fight! I think you are looking at this from a different direction from me. I wouldn't put down what you are doing, but it often the 'alternative' is in danger of becoming so much talking and not enough doing, cutting yourself off from the real world.

But back to home educating - another problem I have with it is that so often the children are put into it because of perceived deficit paradigms - they can't function in schools, schools are no good, they aren't given enough freedom (ever seen children given freedom en masse? Golding wasn't far off!). I have been told, baldly, that ALL gifted and talented children have severe personality problems if they stay in school. All of this is tosh and usually the parent acting out their insecurities on their children. In other words, I have found it rare that a child is home educated for 'happy' reasons.

The other problem is what and how they are taught. Some surveys (and I can't quote them off the top of my head) have found that they are actually (on average) not taught very well, although some are. That is not a criticism of the parent, that is a tragedy for the child. Perhaps parents should be tested and inspected? After all, we wouldn't let an untrained person take out your appendix, would we?

I have also, on one occasion, had a child taken out of school and home educated because I had reported suspected abuse.

And there are, as elsewhere noted, problems of socialisation. Often the child is HE because of poor socialisation in the first place - so that doesn't help much.

Has anyone done any unbiased longitudinal research on the effects of HE? I know the web is full of glowing testimonials, but very few of them seem to be substantiated.

But enough. Make your children happy, but not what you think is happy. I'm sure you do, you sound like a reasonable guy.

[bigjimbishop]

Cheers Dick

Respect

Jim

[SaligoBay]

Fascinating!  Dick, as always, erudite and coherent (I admire that, because I can't do it myself!).

But there must be better arguments for home-schooling than the ones BJB is quoting, surely?   In no way could it be said to combat world poverty!!   Where IS the connection?   Being privileged enough to live mortgage-free in Western Europe, driving a car, using a laptop, electricity, access to clean water, the music industry, emergency services, I'm sorry, but it's not really very obvious how it's helping anyone except yourself.  

The socialisation thing is also interesting, not for the numbers of friends involved, but for the fact that it sounds like you're choosing your children's friends for them - mixing with only those who think like yourself.

No, the state system is far from perfect, but they do learn a lot about Real Life.    You know, like the home-owning, 4x4 drivers generally don't mix too much with the HLM dwellers. 

Respectfully yours, sir, from the lower levels of sub-humanity who have to do nasty things like work to pay for somewhere to live.   How nice it would be to opt out of paying a mortgage, but you know what France is like, the bailiffs would be here quicker than you could say "but I'm combatting world poverty".   

 

 

  

[Deby]

do you mean that you don't want to consider it important? You should know that, after personal ability and month of birth

Dick, what does month of birth have to do with educational performance?  Am curious.

Deby