Teacher refusing to teach english girl???

[Washy]

When we met our friend's daughter from the bus today she told of her hist/geog teacher who had a tantrum in the lesson and said he refused to teacher her as he couldn't cope with the fact that she could not speak French!  He said he was going to write to he 'principal'(?)/form teahcer? and insist someone gives her extra french lessons.  There are several other english stundents in the same class.

The girl is so good tempered about all this and we all sit down to talk her through her homework every evening.  She has had maths, french and spanish each evening...so far.  I thought that at least she would be starting at the same point as everyone else in Spanish.  Having taught languages myself I always used the target language only in class ideally for 100 per cent of the time.  The Spanish teacher is teaching Spanish using french all the time.  A nightmare for a first year who has no knowledge of either language.......but she is already talking of wanting to go to Spain. We are all biting our lips nd not criticising teachers or school, I do hope the hist/geog teacher succeeds in getting her some extra french lessons.

[Tourangelle]

How awful for her. (and you and her mother). I'd be surprised if he wrote the the principal, because that is the headteacher, presumably he intends to speak to the headteacher. He could also see the form teacher, le professeur principal, although frankly what they could do, I have no idea. However if she got more French lessons this would presumably be a good thing. As for the Spanish, the curriculum for languages requires the lessons to take place in the language taught and not in French, except very occassionally to explain grammar when a useful link can be made between French and the target language. So if you wanted to complain about the Spanish teacher they wouldn't have a leg to stand on!

[Val_2]

Looks like the french are rebelling against us brits again - Washy and her damaged orchard and being told she is a tourist,the non-french speaking english girl at my son's Lycée no one wants to teach,the person having trouble with a farmer cutting grass on his land and now this poor girl. In my own experience, teachers in French schools have always been very helpful when my kids needed extra french instead of doing english and for my son, they arranged weekly visits to the Orphophoniste to help his mild dyslexia. I wonder if there has been pressure put on the teachers at this school to get better results and this particular teacher is worried he won't be able to cope with a non-fluent french speaking pupil. I would tell the girl not to worry, the head teacher has an obligation to give her an education and will, if he/she is worth their qualifications do all they can to help her catch up. Both my kids had trouble with Spanish but then so did all the class as the teacher at the collège was a right cow and used to shout at everyone regardless which made them all afraid of her. My daughter now enjoys spanish at her Lycée because the teacher is much more patient and as mentioned, they have to speak all the time in spanish and french is only used to re-iterate some points.

[parsac23]

our daughter had a difficult year in France at her college, in many lessons she just sat there and waited for the lessons to be over as the teachers did not/could not communicate with her. Spanish in particular was a nightmare, she said that that particular teacher actually spoilt her time in France and her memories will be very bleak. We tried to talk to the teacher concerned but hit a blank, it was all blamed on our daughters attitude, she may have appeared unconcerned and bored but she had to deal with it like that or else be in tears all the time. Our daughter is now in her final year in the Uk doing her GCSE;s and is an A grade pupil who is always given the most excellent reports in all respects, yet her reports in France reduced me to tears, she sounded a terrible child.Having said all this at least she has had the experience and saw the venture through to the end.The Latin teacher who in fact did not have any officail lessons with her at all arranged some extra French lessons which was kind of him, he said he just felt a bit embarrassed with how little support she had. The plus side is she intends to do an A level in French and possibly a degree after that.

[Babnik]

I feel for all these kids, and I think the attitude of some of the teachers leaves a lot to be desired, but it's not that surprising really. Imagine a child in a school in the UK, who speaks NO english. I have been there by the way, as I moved to Malta when I was 14, and my Maltese was not great! I also had another two new languages to learn, Italian and Arabic.I worked very hard over the summer, had private lessons many times a week, and improved enough not to be completely lost. I didn't like it. I was 14, and would rather have enjoyed my summer, but I wouldn't have liked being dumped in a class where I understand nothing!

[parsac23]

at our high school in the UK there are many kids who's first language is not English and they have teachers assigned to them individually, they are also assessed for special needs and streamed accordingley, we have non teaching assistants and higher level non teaching assisstants thses days too.There is a lot of support for these kids and they pick up the language quickly. We don't regret our year in France even tho our daughters experience was not a complete positive. We would however not have taken the chance on her not being able to pick up after a year out of the UK systemn had she 1. not been enthusiastic to go to France and 2 had she not been considered bright enough to cope with the year out and have her Education blighted as a result.

[Tourangelle]

[quote]at our high school in the UK there are many kids who's first language is not English and they have teachers assigned to them individually, they are also assessed for special needs and streamed accordi...[/quote]

They do that here too, I have seen it happen in schools in Lyon, but I think they have a lot of kids to deal with that are in that situation, so it makes it more feasible.

[Mistral]

Language isn't supposed to be taught 100% in the target language in france. Teachers are supposed to do the majority of the work in the language but grammar is taught in french because the concepts are already complicated enough without presenting them in a foreign language. Vocabulary should be taught in the language but depending  on the inspecteur you have certain leeway to give translations from time to time.

As a teacher I can understand these teachers' reactions (if not their way of putting things) Last week I found myself faced with a bosniac girl who spoke no french at all in a 3eme class. Luckily she spoke german so I could at least get her to write her name and tell me if she had ever studied English (not very much) but I know that she hasn't got the english level to follow a 3eme class or the French level to understand when I explain the grammar (and this year it's  pluperfect, conditional and passive )The next class had another new girl (this one yugoslavian she said) who spoke no French either, had never studied English and didn't even have the French basics of oui/non/bonjour. Communicating in german (yet again) I asked her to write her name and that's when she explained that she can't read or write either. Both these pupils have been removed from class for a 3 week intensive french class (13 hours a week) and then they'll be back with the others and on 2 or 3 hours of FLE a week.

There has been a lot of muttering in the staffroom about this (turns out there are 6 totally new pupils like them this year) the school is lucky, we have 13 hours of FLE, but they have to be split between the totally new pupils and those who can get by but can't really follow.  All the teachers are aware that a few hours a week aren't enough and we know that the way the system works, we aren't going to be able to give these pupils the attention they need.

It's important to note that teachers generally aren't angry with either the pupils or the parents, but with a system that expects us to finish our programme come whatever and doesn't give us the training or support we need to deal with children with "special needs" (and I count not speaking the language as one)

OK, this doesn't mean that a teacher has the right to refuse to teach a pupil just because he/she doesn't speak french. The law says that all children have the right to an education. It might be that no-one warned the hist-geo teacher that this girl didn't speak French. I had no warning- not even their names on the class list and I would have liked to know in advance. It might also be that if the school has several foreign pupils but no FLE, the teachers are getting a bit fed up with the rectorat.

For info: french, maths and hist-géo teachers are generally the most neurotic in collèges because they have the brevet at the end of 3eme so they have to finish their programme every year. Other teachers can be a bit more flexible

[Viv]

I do think that this is something that education departments in Europe need to start thinking about.

I feel terribly sorry for the girl and also the teachers, who do have enough to contend with. I have friends in London who almost weekly have an intake of asylum seekers that cannot speak a word of English and there are little or no resources available to help either the child or teacher. Needless to say is frustrating and demoralising for all.

It is clear that there is much more mobility amongst people these days, especially now the EU allows for this. But for a variety of reasons, not every child who goes to another country will be able to speak some or any of that countries language and this need to be addressed at a far higher level.

 

[Debra]

I would have thought it was pointless attending a history or geography class until she was fluent in French in any case.  A couple we met said their son did only maths and French until his French was up to scratch, when he then joined in with the other lessons.

[Washy]

Sorry, I would have replied sooner but the alerts do not seems to be getting through to me.  Anyway things have improved for my friend's daughter.  She has been allowed to give up Spanish and now attends English instead which does at least giver her something she can shine in, but she tells us the english teacher teaches english with an american accent....Ha Ha.

The Histo-Geo teacher has calmed down a little and now allows a bilingual english girl in her class to explain questions to her.  In a test a couple of weeks ago he refused to let the girl do this and just made her sit on her own without saying a word to her.  Last week he allowed the english girl to explain the questions to her and wonder of wonders she got 17/20 in the test.

For math her mother has arranged for her to have help in our village from an 18 year old who can explain things in the french way, she is very happy with that and has had 20/20 for recent tests.  I am happy about this as even 6ieme maths is beyond all of us.......or maybe it was the wine affecting our brains when we were all trying to help last week????

Regarding Val's comments about anti- english .....I agree, the same mother has been having terrible trouble trying to get the phone put on - not only were this mother and daughter stranded out of their property by the floods at the weekend, they would not have been able to phone the emergency services had they been in danger.....see my other posting in Telephone Satellite section, and further comments in Testing post in this section.

[Wendy]

I have had even worse experience...my two teenage sons have been without school for 18 months as no college or lycee will even accept them. Just because their french is not good enough. I thought education was free and available to all children in this country. Isn't it a basic right of the child to go to school?. Why is it that in other countries teachers cope with immigrant children but here they just throw their arms around and refuse?.

[Mistral]

Wen, there is a problem here. If your sons are under the age of 16, then schools do have a legal obligation to take them. The fact they don't speak French (although after 18 months, they must be improving) shouldn't come into it. I have loads of pupils who speak little or no French. What does the Inspection Academique say?

 

[zeb]

And how is their French now? If they've been having private lessons for the past 18 months, their language skills should be good enough to get them into lycee surely?

[Lori]

This sounds like a terrible situation for all involved.  I thank the stars above that when our daughter arrived here (at age 7), she had already attended a private French school (albeit a horrible one) in California for two years and spoke pretty good French.  Was able to go directly into her proper grade level.  Had this not been the case I don't believe we would have moved here.  Now, she is in sixieme and doing quite well.

I feel SO bad for those that arrive with no language skills.  How does it happen?  Are these children brought here with their parents by choice?  I know many UK families bring their children over to live and work hard to help them pick up the language, but what about the other children?  Under what circumstances are they brought here?  Mistral, perhaps you could say.  I would imagine that if the schools sent out notices to the parents, many parents would volunteer to help these kids.  ? 

 

[andyh4]

I am sure there are many many reasons why people end up in foreign countries with little or no language skills.  These will range from the purely selfish - mum and dad want a new life, so the kids had better get to like it - through to the little option.

 

Many interrnational companies expect their managers to be flexible.  I myself was moved to Grmany at one week's notice.  Because I was working for a German firm I already had a half reasonable grasp of the language.  My wife on the other hand had 2 months to learn while I found somewhere to live.  She is still very limited ten years on - and if we had had children to bring as well.......................

 

The option was always there to say no, but that could have been a career limiting move, and in my case would certainly have led to redundancy five years down the track when the Uk operation closed.  Add to that high unemployment at that time and I felt we had little option - not that we regret it.  But just imagine the same scene with children say 8, 10 and 14 - that would have been really tough.

 

 

[Teamedup]

Remember Andyh4 that generally this board goes against any percentages pertaining to the general population and the vast majority of the board members children who move here are really clever, fit in, pick up the language and are top of their class in no time. To me is it miraculous that we are told about 80% come into this top bracket rather than about the 20% which is the natural nation average, but hey, that is what I am constantly told on here so it must be true n'est pas.

Wen, as Mistral said, if they were under 16 when you got here then the education nationale had a responsibility to teach them. If they are now over 16 I would have them down to the ANPE and get them refered to the people that deal with young people. They can help organise stages etc.

[Mistral]

Lori, my school is next to an  asylum seekers' centre so a lot of the non-French speaking pupils come from there.  We have quite a few Chechens and Roms at the moment, many of whom had no formal schooling at all before arriving in France. For a lot of these families language learning isn't very high on their list of priorities as they don't even know which country they are going to end up in.

My school has 13 hours of FLE (Francais langue etrangere) available for these pupils. Technically these hours should only be used for pupils who have just arrived in France, but we try and split them between the primos (new arrivals) and those who have been here a couple of years but who still have problems with the language. We are very lucky to have so many hours, 2 years ago, we had 3.

Asking for help from parents seems logical, but it would be badly received in a French school (not by the parents, by the teachers)

 

[Lori]

Mistral - I thought that might be the case.  I guess we should all count our lucky blessings.  It is too bad the teachers do not feel volunteer parents could help.  I know I would volunteer if someone would have me.  As you say, these kids have so many problems dumped on them.  If even a small part of the burden could be lifted a little, it might go a long way to improve their lives.

 

 

[Wendy]

Thanks to all for your very welcome advice and info...however both my sons are now over 16. Inspection Academique? don't even get me started on that department!. Our local college called in a gentleman from the local youth centre and he told us that as my son was well over 6ft tall, with red hair and blue eyes, he wouldn't even fit in with the local kids of his age at the school. We are in a Catalan region and the kids are not tall with red hair and blues eyes as you could imagine. My, then 16 year old, was accepted into a college 30 km's away but into a very small class called SIPPA. His fellow students were of Moroccan/Algerian origin, were french speaking, but had arrived here having never attended school. He received NO french lessons, or any lessons at all, and the teacher sat only with the other students. He left home each day at 6.30am and arrived home each day after 7.00pm having spent the entire day sitting at the back of the class with only a maths paper a 7 year old could complete.  When we withdrew him after 7 weeks of this nonsense the teacher called us on the phone and in an abusive manner informed us there was no hope for him and said he was not permitted to come back to the class. This is the type of logic we have been up against. Now they are 18 and 19 and I am now looking for courses of study, this time via long distance. They are studying french but without the vital interaction with their peers they are not fluent, or confident.  In short, with all the rejections in the past 18 months they have rebelled somewhat, but enjoy living here and are doing their best to make a go of things.

What I'm saying is this, these kids were keen to attend school here but were not welcome. Now Ive been told that after the age of 16 the schools do not have to accept them. Why on earth could they not have simply attended the local schools and simply sat in with the other kids and be allowed to have a go? which is all they wanted to do. Im very sure that if this had been the case, the interaction with their peers would have helped their french language skills along even further.  I know things would have followed on from there but they weren't even given the chance to try.

[Teamedup]

Wen, so that means that they were both over 16 when they came then. I don't think that they were  obliged to take your kids at the local college as obligitory schooling is only until 16. They were old enough to work, only that is nigh on impossible without an apprenticeship in France........ 

Was there any reason why you arrived so unprepared?

 

[Wendy]

We did not arrive unprepared at all. My boys could speak some french prior but were not fluent. We do not come from the UK where french is compulsory in school. My son was 16 when we arrived, his brother was 18.  

We were, however, unprepared for the discriminatory attitudes towards non-french by certain govt depts here and their total lack of willingness to let someone just 'have a go'.

No, after the age of 16 schools don't have to accept kids but if they want to go to school they should be allowed to. It happens in other countries so why not here. Its just another case where rules matter here more than people.

[Teamedup]

For all they don't have to accept kids over 16, there could well be some schools that do. However those that don't want to use their budgets providing extra staff etc for non obligitory non french speakers are entitled to do so too. And your lads were not their problem. Also I cannot see anyway they would have accepted the elder of the two anywhere unless his french was really up to scratch and at least at 18 he could have at least applied for some sort of work and be taken on. Employers will not look at under 18 year olds because of insurance etc, the 16 year old still being classed as a 'child' and still being under parental responsiblitity. I know, my fluent 16 year old tried to get a job, rather than an apprenticeship.

Did you try any of the college/lycee prive ?

The youth people were probably the ones who could have done the most, apparently they did a little which was unsuccessful.

 

The problem ofcourse is that they have no financial entitlement at all. You ofcourse can get the  family allowance and an allowance for them on their income tax.