Brevet exam equivelent to GCSE's???

[Barbel Bob]

Hi,

My son is 16 and is applying to attend 6th form college in england. He has been told he will need 5 grade B GCSE's or the French equivelent. He has his Brevet which he passed with 14points therefore obtaining a mention assez bien. We were very proud of him for doing this as he had only been in French education for 2yrs.

How does this compare to GCSE's????

[NormanH]

You are right to be proud.

The Brévet is not as important in France as GCSEs in the UK, but what he has is certainly worth at least 5 GCSEs. ( and more...!)

If you really need I can try to find the site giving the exact details, but having worked in a Sixth Form college in the UK at one period I suggest phoning the one he wants to go to, explaining the situation, if necessary asking them to  check with their Head of Modern languages about the French system.

I am sure they will only too happy to take as bright a boy as your son.

As an afterthought why not ask for him to do 'A' level French in one year as an 'extra', even if he doesn't take it as one of his main subjects?

[Barbel Bob]

Hi Norman,

Thankyou, we applied to two colleges one straight away accepted him, the other has replied saying he will need the 5 GCSE's or French equivelent, this it the better of the two colleges and the one we want him to attend. I plan to write back saying that the Brevet is the equivelent but wanted to be sure it was so if there is a website out there that backs this up that would be appreciated.

He is taking 3 A Levels plus French as we really do not want him to lose his French...

[Lehaut]

Not wishing to hi-jack this thread, but we are most interested in NormanH's firm assertion that the Brevet is "worth at least 5 GCSEs (and more...!) We have no (recent) experience of the UK education system as we moved to France with our children at pre-school age.  They both started in French schools at 2.5 and 3 years old.  We have often wondered how the two systems compare and were pleasantly suprised to read that the Brevet has such a high UK equivalent, espcially as our eldest took it at 14  with obligatory exams in only  three subjects (French,  Maths and History/Geography/Civil Education)  the other subjects being evaluated on the years work.  This type of evaluation does means that some children just need to put their name on the actual exam paper as they have amassed enough points in the year to get the Brevet!

Could we trouble you for the link to the site you mention, thanks in advance.

The OP does indeed have reason to be proud having their son achieve such a high level in so short a period of time in the French system. (IMO).

 

 

 

 

[NormanH]

I have not been able to find the site that I spoke of and used some time ago.

It showed equivalent levels across the systems.

That set me doubting so I have

I did find a .pdf file which gives the equivalents accepted for Initial Teacher Training

www.bestpracticenet.co.uk/downloads/hlta/gcse_equivalents.pdf

I have looked at the National Database of accredited qualifications

http://www.accreditedqualifications.org.uk/index.aspx

but this only covers UK qualifications, and

the  European Qualifications framework

http://www.qcda.gov.uk/19302.aspx

but so far I can't find any detail except this table :

Final referencing of the QCF to the EQF 

QCF level  E1  E2  E3  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8

EQF level  –             1  2  3  4    5    6  7  8

There is no problem in equivalence between  A levels and the

Baccalaureate

(see the entrance requirements for Cambridge which state :

Typical offers for applicants taking the French Baccalaureate are 16 or

17 (‘mention très bien’) out of 20. Applicants are also usually asked to

achieve 16 or 17 in specific subjects.

http://www.cam.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/apply/other.html

So anybody wanting to transfer at the end of secondary education has no

problem

 

The problem arises because in Frace  the Brevet is taken at the end of year 11, and then there is a move to Lycée, for three years to the Baccalaureate, whereas in the UK GCSEs are taken at the end of year 12 and then A levels take two years.

As  there is no formal examination at the end of year 12 in France some organisations question whether the Brevet (effectively a 4 year qualification) is equivalent to GCSE (a 5 year one)

This is the case with the Royal Marines:

"Having just conferred with the Admiralty Interview Board, we can advise

that unfortunately the 4 year Brevet Des Colleges is not acceptable in

lieu of the UK 5 year GCSE's, however the good news is that the 3 year

Baccalaureate is accepted in lieu of both the combined A Level &

GCSE requirement.

"  from

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/prmc/showthread.php?t=14679

Part of this come from the doubt that a French teenager with the Brevet would have a good enough level of English, which is not the case with your son.

I remember working on CVs with French students who confidently wrote 'equivalent to 5 GCSEs', but as this wasn't the final qualification they had there was no harm done.

I know that it is possible to amass enough points during the year to get the Brevet.  This is not so different to the coursework element in many GCSEs, though most French 'proprammes' are more content- heavy than the UK counterparts.

I can only repeat my suggestion that you contact the Head of Admissions at the college you want to son to attend  and talk it through, pointing out that this was achieved in a foreign language in two years, and if necessary referring to the  programme of the 3ème :

http://www.academie-en-ligne.fr/Classes.aspx?CLASSE=Troisi%C3%A8me

If you want to pm with more detail of the particular college I can perhaps help a bit more

[NormanH]

I have not been able to find the site that I spoke of and used some time ago.

It showed equivalent levels across the systems.

That set me doubting so I have done a bit of research.

I did find a .pdf file which gives the equivalents accepted for Initial Teacher Training

www.bestpracticenet.co.uk/downloads/hlta/gcse_equivalents.pdf

I have looked at the National Database of accredited qualifications

http://www.accreditedqualifications.org.uk/index.aspx

but this only covers UK qualifications, and

the  European Qualifications framework

http://www.qcda.gov.uk/19302.aspx

but so far I can't find any detail except this table :

Final referencing of the QCF to the EQF 

QCF level  E1  E2  E3  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8

EQF level  –             1  2  3  4    5    6  7  8

There is no problem in equivalence between  A levels and the

Baccalaureate

(see the entrance requirements for Cambridge which state :

Typical offers for applicants taking the French Baccalaureate are 16 or

17 (‘mention très bien’) out of 20. Applicants are also usually asked to

achieve 16 or 17 in specific subjects.

http://www.cam.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/apply/other.html

So anybody wanting to transfer at the end of secondary education has no

problem

 

The problem arises because in Frace  the Brevet is taken at the end of year 10, and then there is a move to Lycée, for three years to the Baccalaureate, whereas in the UK GCSEs are taken at the end of year 11 and then A levels take two years.

As  there is no formal examination at the end of year 11 in France some organisations question whether the Brevet (effectively a 4 year qualification) is equivalent to GCSE (a 5 year one)

This is the case with the Royal Marines:

"Having just conferred with the Admiralty Interview Board, we can advise

that unfortunately the 4 year Brevet Des Colleges is not acceptable in

lieu of the UK 5 year GCSE's, however the good news is that the 3 year

Baccalaureate is accepted in lieu of both the combined A Level &

GCSE requirement.

"  from

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/prmc/showthread.php?t=14679

Part of this come from the doubt that a French teenager with the Brevet would have a good enough level of English, which is not the case with your son.

I remember working on CVs with French students who confidently wrote 'equivalent to 5 GCSEs', but as this wasn't the final qualification they had there was no harm done.

I know that it is possible to amass enough points during the year to get the Brevet.  This is not so different to the coursework element in many GCSEs, though most French 'proprammes' are more content- heavy than the UK counterparts.

I can only repeat my suggestion that you contact the Head of Admissions at the college you want to son to attend  and talk it through, pointing out that this was achieved in a foreign language in two years, and if necessary referring to the  programme of the 3ème :

http://www.academie-en-ligne.fr/Classes.aspx?CLASSE=Troisi%C3%A8me

If you want to pm with more detail of the particular college I can perhaps help a bit more

[Hoddy]

Just a small correction NormanH. In the UK GCSEs are taken at the end of Year 11.

Hoddy

[NormanH]

Thanks in that case the brevet would be year 10.. I have edited the previous post to show this.

I still think in terms of Upper Middle and Lower fifth [:D]

[HoneySuckleDreams]

As an aside to the equivalence of Brevet and GCSE's. My eldest is doing his Brevet this year and we have been revising. With Maths, I managed to get hold of some recent GCSE papers as well as some old 'O' level papers. I would say that the Brevet is more akin to the old 'O' level as even I find the GCSE papers remarkably easy.

Norman:

Would a French child be allowed to enter the Royal Marines if he got the required BAC level? Unfortunately it doesn't work the other way round here, my middle son asked about joining the French airforce, but he must be French (or hold dual nationality).

[NormanH]

According to the site:

you must be male and a member of the Commonwealth or Irish Republic

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/royalmarines/careers/entry-requirements/

[Barbel Bob]

Norman thanks again for your help, i have taken everything into account and sent them a letter detailing what you have advised!

J

[NormanH]

Good luck! If they can't see his merits they don't deserve him.

[Richardbk]

Hi all, we are going through a similar exercise, and perhaps looking to move from 3eme to a UK school (fed up with the system here !).

There appears to be different opinions as to whether the brevet is equivalent or slightly less than GCSEs.

The most useful - and perhaps authoritive link we have found is with the UCAS international qualifications comparison documents

http://www.dur.ac.uk/resources/ug.admissions/ucasinfo/intquals06.pdf

where the Brevet is generally considered as 4 GCSEs below grade C. This would make sense, as most kids would effectively take GCSEs the year after finishing a brevet. However, I would concur with an earlier poster in that the Brevet in subjects such as Maths and French (compare with English) , appears significantly more challenging than GCSE exam papers that I have seen.

However, the whole subject seems to be rather subjective with various proposals for comparison schemes. A more optimistic view of the brevet is provided at.

www.nuffield.ox.ac.uk/Users/.../Casmin%20Education.htm

BTW the general French view is that GCSEs are the equivalent of a Brevet.

regs

Richard

[NormanH]

Thanks those are useful links.

Ultimately the authority will be the the  European Qualifications framework ( see the link I posted above)

One point I didn't underline is that as the Brevet is taken a year earlier than GCSEs it can be justified as an equivalent on the basis that it is a good prediction if the level  a year later.

To say (as in one of these links)  that it is only 4 GCSEs is strange in that the French system is broader for longer. It could be assumed that an English child with the Brevet could pass GCSE English French Maths Geography History and at least one Science.

 UCAS always accepts the Bac, so anybody transferring at 18+ doesn't have this problem

[thepenofmyaunt]

Having  moved back to the UK last year with children in Year 7 and Year 9, who because of their birthdays were in the year above in France, we've been able to draw a direct comparison between the curriculum in the UK and France.  I believe that brevet is well below the standard of 5 GCSEs. Our children were very behind in Maths and Sciences compared to their UK counterparts and that was despite coming from the top school in the departement. They are also, obviously, very behind in RE and the school commented that both had a very 'limited' knowledge of Europe, which was surprising considering that they had lived in continental Europe for so many years. Overall, we've found the education and especially the teaching in the UK to be of a much higher standard and much more challenging than than in France. Also, you need to bear in mind that GCSEs do not depend solely on an exam paper where information is regurgitated parrot-fashion. It also involves some fairly indepth coursework which I think most French children would struggle to complete.

I'm afraid I don't agree with NormanH that a French educated child could pass GCSEs in either History or Geography seeing as their curriculum is far less in-depth and as Science in France is taught as one subject up to Brevet I think they'd struggle with any of the single science GCSEs but might manage a combined one. My son says that the subjects studied are broadly similar but in the UK are studied to a greater depth and with greater use of technology. He says that he might have been able to manage a Foundation GCSE paper but certainly not a Higher one.

Another thing to point out is that many children in the UK take at least some GCSEs a year early now in year 10 as opposed to Year 11.

My son's school recently hosted a college from Bordeaux and the comments from the French students were that the work was much harder, the students were much more respectful and that discipline was stricter. Who'd have thought!

[Russethouse]

Interesting comments

Roughly where are abouts are you in the UK (no need to be too specific if you do not wish) and how does the area in France you have left compare with the area in the Uk where you are now: rural, surburban, town, city ?

[thepenofmyaunt]

Russethouse, both very similar in fact. Both schools are in small towns in rural areas, both have a wide catchment area, both serve a wide mixture of abilities and social backgrounds, both are considered good schools in their area. The difference in the standard of learning and teaching, behaviour of pupils and facilities, however, is enormous.  I think it's fair to say that the schooling in France was nothing like I'd been led to believe and the schooling in the UK, likewise, has been far from what the media portrays.  It's been interesting to be able to compare the same school year in France and the UK. The curriculums are pretty similar, it's the depth to which each subject is taught  and the higher expectations that the teachers have of the pupils that is the difference. Both children say that school in the UK is much harder than in France. I do rate primary school in France very highly though.

[NormanH]

I very much respect personal experience

I think that in France there is more reliance on knowledge of content, handed out by the teacher and tested, whereas in the UK there is supposed to be more involvement and active learning on the part of the student.

However I notice that parents arriving in France often are impressed with the

system, just as you are obviously pleased with the system in the UK.

It's possible that these views are a little coloured by the wish to have

done the best by one's children

You can compare syllabuses to some extent:

History

UK : http://web.aqa.org.uk/qual/newgcses/his_rel/current/history_b_materials.php?id=10&prev=10&tabid=2#

France: http://www.academie-en-ligne.fr/Ressources.aspx?PREFIXE=AL4GH31&CLASSE=Troisi%C3%A8me

Maths:

UK: http://www.wjec.co.uk/index.php?subject=90&level=7&list=paper

France http://www.academie-en-ligne.fr/Ressources.aspx?PREFIXE=AL4MA31&CLASSE=Troisi%C3%A8me

remembering that 3ème is a year earlier than GCSE.

I have worked in both systems and would say that the old 'O' levels were at a French standard, but that GCSEs are 'dumbed down' education, but that is a subjective view.

[Panda]

 

I know what you are saying Norman but having just done the same thing, gone back to the UK that is with a child.  The difference for me the depth to which each child is engaged.  In France my son was left to his own devices , the horror of one school had him completing different work(sheets mostly) than the others because he was not French, he had been in France for 5 years at this point and was as capable as the next child.  I have been to the UK school to have a prearranged (by the school) meeeting on his progress numerous times too, something the French teachers really discouraged to the point of hostility if they were asked to explain in any detail about issues, what was being covdered/not covered etc.  They made me feel it was not my place to ask. 

The differences are massive between the two systems, it's not all good in one direction obviously but I do feel the breadth of subject is much wider in the UK as per the previous poster.  My son has covered more history, geography and science in this last year than he ever did in France and because they make learning more interactive and fun (he recently made bouncing custard for example) the kids seem happier doing it.

I do feel the teachers I've encoutered here in the UK care a great deal more about the outcome for the students, in France his last two teachers just wanted to get through each day and didnt seem bothered who they took with them.  I know, I know such a general statement and I could find the same in either country but that's just my expereince of it.

[woolybanana]

So, in France, education is serious and designed to make serious citizens and in UK they spend their time making bouncy custard?  Hmmmmmm

[Kitty]

I think that it all depends on the individual teachers.  I have taught children about the forces of volcanos by shaking a cola bottle (full of cola of course) - in the UK and in France.  They never forget the lesson.

[Panda]

[quote user="woolybanana"]So, in France, education is serious and designed to make serious citizens and in UK they spend their time making bouncy custard?  Hmmmmmm[/quote]

Hello Wools, how are you keeping?

Yes well bouncy custard (and coke my son would love that but would do it at home too no doubt) keeps them interested and yes I do think France turns out more 'serious' citizens but lifes too short for a country full of Victor Meldrews!

I 've never yet met a happy go lucky french person or one that said, do you know I had a fantastic day to day, everything was great! They seem to enjoy the serious and melancoly and geive them an illness and you would never get away, or was that just when I was around??

[Chancer]

I would say in all seriousness that in  5 years of immersion I have only met one happy go lucky French person, not necessarily carefree but with a positive can do mental attitude.

Time will tell whether he is an fact mentally ill, the jury is out at the moment [;-)]

I do find a general attitude of not being able/willing to dig oneself out of a hole, I know that we dont as yet have an ambulance chasing culture but every misfortune of life seems to be laid firmly at the door of the government or the authorities, as witnessed by anyone interviewed on TV news whether it be stuck in a foreign airport or striking for the pouvoir d'achat.

The Dunkirk spirit only seems to apply to those north of the channel.

[woolybanana]

Hello Panda, I'm fine. You good. How's the cricket?

The French need a couple of drinks to loosen up or to go abroad and get away.

But I know lots of girls with bits like bouncy custard but maybe that doesnt count?

[thepenofmyaunt]

Panda, I completely agree with what you say. Too many of the teachers in France seemed to be marking time until retirement and had little if any interest in their students.  In the UK they make learning so much more engaging - mine haven't done bouncy custard but my oldest was able to create an earthquake using a National Geographic computer programme, they do experiments in the sciences which they didn't do in France, it's so much more hands on. It's the way that subjects are looked at from so many different angles that mine particularly enjoy. 

A friend from France was visiting yesterday and asked me to help her daughter with an controle that she had struggled with. My heart sank when I looked at how they are being taught. It's so dry and uninspiring, just rote learning with no attempt at making the student understand what they are doing.  The subject was racism and all she had to do was answer questions from a text in front of her whereas when my eldest covered the same subject he had to create a poster showing the effects of racism and write an essay, independently researched, on a historical figure who played a part in some aspect of the subject. He chose Malcolm X.   I remember a comment from a friend in France who's daughter  had been in school for 10 years and she'd suddenly come to the realisation that her daughter could parrot all manner of information but didn't actually understand what any of it meant.

All an exam can do is provide a snapshot of a student on a particular day whereas in the UK they are taking into account coursework and assessing students throughout the year so really I think there is litle point in saying that the GCSE exam is dumbed down as it's only one part of the whole thing.

The Grand Ecoles produce the leaders but the Education Nationale produces the workers who will do what the leader say without questioning.